X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=7p3kvphiM1CRjHpjwvK+hw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=mPpAlzoyAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=7LNvB3gmn257P4LUKdkA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-9v_JbDb-ZoA:10 a=hOeugfDNugLPnndKC-oA:9 a=4QhiCX_sJgWk8Y2m:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=c8bjAVVP6yRcgDy_Aagi:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-il1-f173.google.com ([209.85.166.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 603589 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 11:57:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.173; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f173.google.com with SMTP id z17so19528814ill.6 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K/INZdLU1YxsvcIe5WFyVP8VkcZ4PDr7k+YkYZ4ZK9c=; b=Vxx1/8ZfpS6iToEaOv6QlCsG2H6mA/9cNu7UP17Ty3TEfgocNUHfj5WfBBCaYeBBuw /2cRSetU2pJ2IFpdjDYs2eemWbLg5RkdrKmtoYxSVwy8SHxNS5itDPsQZCxZ4ITth0LB SPndHSrcuc2OeamJEyTO0Vn7iV/x5j+G1er/cJ4v3kBFMEdH9dNONV/ivgd5UB/aDT5n DXwLu3Sty9Ym+0PORJfp+l9XWbYcjyeatEvwab9lSqtpu7pUbIv2oknku+A8nZosABrp VUJK5jmcsbExeCaneba+IN5ReVo7Olvd/XdCjCXXFmDbwLVidUruGrSDNUjDkGFg7PCq wGcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=K/INZdLU1YxsvcIe5WFyVP8VkcZ4PDr7k+YkYZ4ZK9c=; b=Pqo1IvIvN1RIUhiYdahPV21AIxuvdE6OwV8L3852f450iWb3TfiMoNxBl4DqwsnuKZ 3nx2pB1NeQS26uZ/36Chy0rI3JdIMEobz54oXKkbHJxfZSBM9IUxgLxWJA1MOIGeV/2V 8gnkhrffrj6I/spgy7tSnqF/hbP5sT9faBTee5lJkzn6RMXpOkpk8Q2QSN/kDgPMsF/Z toc/JQlGSCfV3Z3A5bjZRTazh5oGkxboFI5ONpGYNKU1t/Ss+cNqaLs3Y7uECIwG6B7c XY8azCR50W9V/3RPbAuCfRVd/0WKBpesNO+z9Zb7qUOihQjQ5mP/TXUbr7ZpPzn6PYB7 +qEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532qm4Ejt7uPbH8haqXbj/PdNOERZqKsaigCNDuXvlIgHfRQ1a2K at+//5Fi+/Jt6d6gUR1LXJMbjTuwITeT6WUlGlaYrnma X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzxdwGhm1bR0JN4l2/173ACEbiUF/5FhCjkRYKnSDgHCVTT7pU/n/njQhram9E44z5RTwwOxo/3SZp4H7t+VXs= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c0c3:: with SMTP id t3mr5610630ilf.47.1596556646845; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:57:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:56:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc930405ac0f4f6d" --000000000000cc930405ac0f4f6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any reason a stainless (or even brass) ball valve (with a pull-cable to activate) wouldn't work? On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:37 AM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I did a google search. there was a company in FL that made valves to > spec. I got a normally open, 12v, electric valve with oil tolerant > innards and NPT fittings. cost about $120 at the time. Cant remember th= e > name of the company.... > > Here it is: > http://www.jeffersonvalves.com/inicio.asp?sec=3Di&lang=3Dleng > They are not really set up for the small guy, but they were nice enough t= o > me. Special order, took a couple of weeks. > > Dave Leonard > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:42 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Hi Dave; >> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>> >>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perha= ps >>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not g= oing >>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan t= o >>> achieve it. >>> >>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turb= o to >>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impell= er >>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. I= t >>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runni= ng >>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about = 30" >>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>> >>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my >>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the >>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can >>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as y= ou >>> need. >>> >>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are >>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to >>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. T= ry >>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away >>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You = will >>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily >>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>> aircraft. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Group, >>>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so = as to >>>> not get into >>>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>>> >>>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>>> >>>> Kelly troyer >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> * Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy th= e >>>>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>>>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?* >>>>> >>>>> *Neil.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> > Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AMTo= : >>>>> Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b= 's in >>>>> aircraft* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *James,* >>>>> >>>>> *I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also >>>>> have options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ >>>>> Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade. Mak= es a >>>>> nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can= find >>>>> in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 3= 50hp >>>>> at sea level.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>>>> various parameters in selecting a turbo.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Leonard* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com >>>>> <12348ung@gmail.com> >>>> > wrote:* >>>>> >>>>> *James,* >>>>> >>>>> * 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard.= Think >>>>> they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world >>>>> trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exis= t if >>>>> you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bough= t 2 >>>>> hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will = need >>>>> bearings.* >>>>> >>>>> * There was an offer of one in south Africa for freigh= t >>>>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual mu= ch to >>>>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler t= hat >>>>> may fit.* >>>>> >>>>> *Best, Neil.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AMT= o: >>>>> Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> >Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's i= n >>>>> aircraft* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand an= d >>>>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experien= ce is >>>>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>>>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage= for >>>>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst* >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --000000000000cc930405ac0f4f6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any= reason a stainless (or even brass) ball valve (with a pull-cable to activa= te) wouldn't work?

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:37 AM David Leonard= wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:
I did a google search.=C2=A0 there was a com= pany in FL that made valves to spec.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I got a normally open, 12v= , electric valve with oil tolerant innards and NPT fittings.=C2=A0 cost abo= ut $120 at the time.=C2=A0 Cant remember the name of the company....
<= div>
Here it is:
http://www.je= ffersonvalves.com/inicio.asp?sec=3Di&lang=3Dleng
They are not re= ally set up for the small guy, but they were nice enough to me.=C2=A0 Speci= al order, took a couple of weeks.=C2=A0

Dave Leon= ard

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:42 P= M Todd Bartrim bartr= im@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi Dave;
=C2=A0= What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:
Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4= -E50 in my post above.

Mark, its not about the horsepowe= r so much as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the = conditions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp&= quot; in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific= =C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much = above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 tu= rbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in= the car - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking abo= ut doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was = making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.= =C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RP= M.=C2=A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably onl= y lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power.= =C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almos= t home and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about= 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, i= s to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I no= w have one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be he= morrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you w= ill run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you c= an continue to fly n/a as long as you need.

Play a= round with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are real= istic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fl= y, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste v= arious turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the int= ernet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2= =A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying = away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if p= ossible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a goo= d choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 d= oes not belong in an aircraft.

Best,
Dav= e Leonard

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:
Group,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no ru= nning experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I settled on a "Tur= bonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not get int= o=C2=A0
any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=

Kelly troyer

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= br>

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?= =C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am = I off with the fairys having this expectation?=

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supe= rcars.=C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cos= t is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I ha= d a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2= =A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.

= =C2=A0

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various= parameters in selecting a turbo.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0<= /u>

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:= 07 AM 12348ung@gmai= l.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2= =80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the stan= dard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying to get an a= ffordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk to dr= ag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitach= i turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearing= s.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa= for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now= , but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally = found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
<= b>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0=

Does anyone out there have any= recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300= -400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their= needs but are different from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b'= s are nearing the decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst=



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