X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=bITFefrx8MEES/AdMiujTg==:117 a=5ZdN53DUBXSlI79CusMrgQ==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=UIikiRLkQZzO9rSGOtIA:9 a=xEtWT2Nx8tJZpokh:21 a=-Mr_UBF6o50HTHCV:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=-0wlSyyMpoHC1BqA5VcA:9 a=OlnEkhLCVMOgg8O9:21 a=osHornpdXSN2x4de:21 a=X4mvhMdCDU490094:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qt1-f180.google.com ([209.85.160.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 603364 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 11:17:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.180; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-qt1-f180.google.com with SMTP id w9so31135051qts.6 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:17:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=1X7so2ystjngvYXRkg4F7ZdeHBGcM6/Jl6gNEgvaBTE=; b=lVWW+sS+MxvMq1oz54vgjZ0f1BSVuqlZALuMudie5MXwQiUjfyjbDuMsFqqHCmGMyM GV/xPHClXWZiByqm1gjKXLj9LqY0kxtXBmDILI+2GhqjhzpkKRzatwYaiP1QRZ24noBW mk3U3VFwf5sFJUEPvxVNFAHyV/3oieIavxspSSrdv7hjSfzQSXmWlcp4kF2GLUPg0AnY YZQZQoV514IFV4xBY/FKA9NgDbR9P5B+jEiDBg2d3A7tS0GT0Q0ntallcEn83QylJf39 0A+cyusmUV33F0ndK78kj9l4HV/3X3lHY3xWwwOGfQK2e0LTlVS4BOC5YRIB5YL7Oo0y wDLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=1X7so2ystjngvYXRkg4F7ZdeHBGcM6/Jl6gNEgvaBTE=; b=EkBtLeB9znkxOiQN3zu7nPTsQJupPFE75gvDiZ/+x2FL6WdmBG8QauyeUrza/zxY5m 4vboO8Q1hsR+80Atn2UF+sSJiMKJQsM+EMpRcmcqPb9L9QlHN51r9GsoDPMat4+28wIQ +KxJXx76cD4Kt4Qmg7ye2B8ma5eBbDNaPk9fp8Ph59WGFGSdZ7XNHynYukg0/+48ENaR nHdby7N5vAjz6MkwOlSK2J5i1i4sRRtplyTEUwnXbfpdVX195xAqcc1R3PcJyTPCPotN o61UwhIjwgC7g+XcCeGg+G9SwCBD78NRbsL8xEcDt+AOJ5n9MtekmudxQ/HKSnHwhnDY ghCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RMpqjC7kDsKgPLZAvinGvM+zbs3W4Hzdm5Ym0KLwEoUxrI6jN ygOFJUzzo88ahb5zzpjgXM73KUjD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZQpeDUlwJVHcRJ8LxbA+XrvnuGWYi8eJCkqqDOukkBagEC4GxpyU4tXjKExm5l1yEhjzCeA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:306f:: with SMTP id g44mr22348477qte.177.1596554241662; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.245] ([166.137.96.69]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t127sm22049922qkc.100.2020.08.04.08.17.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <9381a98d-7aca-3489-a50d-10da942bf6f6@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:17:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7D624F337636C85D3CC2B1E8" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200804-2, 08/04/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7D624F337636C85D3CC2B1E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lynn is obviously more qualified to have a legit answer, but I suspect that the problem is more related to the assembly method than the materials. Really long bolts make it really hard to control stretching. Look at a Lycoming cylinder attachment, vs a Volkswagen flat 4 cylinder attachment. The Lyc uses a flange on the base of the cylinder and short bolts (case through-bolts excepted). And they use the rather expensive method of threading the head and cylinder for head attachment. The VW uses long bolts to clamp both head and cylinder to the crankcase. Even at VW power levels, the long bolts can be an issue; case fretting, head gasket leaks, etc. And in the rotary, when the bolts stretch, bending loads get introduced partially replacing shear loads when the housings try to rotate past each other. I suspect that all those issues would go away if the stack could be assembled with each layer being bolted into the previous one (offsetting the bolt points), but that would likely require non-identical components. Unlikely that Mazda would do it, because the normal method is 'good enough' for intended use, and *much* cheaper to manufacture. Charlie On 8/4/2020 9:44 AM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: > Ernest good question...........Need someone smarter than me for an > opinion on that although I would think by eliminating the > differences in expansion rates between > cast iron and aluminum would stop (or minimise ) movement of the side > plates  ............. > > Kelly Troyer > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:07 AM Ernest Christley echristley@att.net > > wrote: > > Concerning the stacks moving with heat cycles:  Won't most of that > go away when the plates and housing are made of the same materials? > > On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jepson > wrjjrs@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > Kelly, > The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full > temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power > run in a race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary > eshaft is super strong and isn’t the problem. The housings and > plate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cycles. Not saying > you can’t make something that will live, just mentioning potential > problems. You will need to make some mods to prevent problems. > Bill > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, > >       All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending > moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 > inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge > the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron > (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my > opinion should have all alloy housings and  .500 inch > studs........... > >      Think about this hypothetical situation..............You > have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 > dyno hp) and tricked out with all the racing options available > in a > drag race car.............It is supported from a center > housing (as a stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm > you drop the clutch............What kind of bending and  > torsional loads do > you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing > circles this happens all the time with amazing > reliability...............Now think about an all alloy 20B > (boosted or NA) in an aircraft > driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing > standards as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown > between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only............ > >     Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) > boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a > 20B)...........Of course this is only my opinion and you know what > opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this > group are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but > you have to admit I have made the forum lively lately !!.......... >    As things progress or digress I will let the forum know > until told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie for > resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench > in my hands)........ > > Best Regards, > Kelly Troyer > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com > > wrote: > > The bending loads are carried for the most part by the > upper tension bolts. The studded engines are using the > tight fitting studs to manage torsional loads. In high > power street and drag race engines it was not at all > uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or > break out and alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as > the top runs have oil pressure. The studs provide more > clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings in the > correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from > the rotor face during combustion. If you take apart an old > engine you often find that the rotor housings have a hint > of black death (similar to black death on the sides of > pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. > This is the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case > bolts were necked down between bolt head and the threads. > Later bolts are not...........more clamping pressure.  >  The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly in > the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up > and torqued. One at a time....so is costly to have done. > It is also a source of add HP and less wear. Notice that > even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the center iron > so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover > > In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard > Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net > writes: > > Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you > mentioned. Could it possible be - why some of the > early design  allumnium casted sumps, of the Mistral 3 > rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that > the bed type mount for the rotary ( pusher type > config.) the thicker sump and plate, has a lot to do > with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a > solid unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts > and “dowls” > It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous > experience in these loads and type of mounts as well > as the casted sumps. > The torque loads of the prop and all ads up. > > Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic > Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these > type of mounts? i don’t know. > > Cracked Sump > > “I did have a couple of teething problems; the most > important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast engine > sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted > in their usual fashion. After getting details, they > confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of > the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced > sump, but never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, > so none of the new models were made. I was offered a > temporary replacement until the new sumps would be > produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to > wait, and got my new sump within two months—and a > Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.” > > > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach > > On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson > wrjjrs@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Charlie, and everyone rotary, > I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar > mount to a standard aircraft engine. But I want to > remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its > automotive layout doesn’t work well as the stack > of plates and housings isn’t set up to handle the > bending moment. In Mazda’s racing engines they > added plates to enable them to hang the engine > from one end. They still used cradle mounts. The > Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase > halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. > If you don’t plan to build the rotary with some > modifications for axial stiffness and housing > location it isn’t a good idea to hang it from one > of the end plates. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England > ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England > > wrote: > > There are 8 pics in this series. My image > resizer program got them down to around > 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come > in 8 separate emails. > > > > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------7D624F337636C85D3CC2B1E8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lynn is obviously more qualified to have a legit answer, but I suspect that the problem is more related to the assembly method than the materials. Really long bolts make it really hard to control stretching. Look at a Lycoming cylinder attachment, vs a Volkswagen flat 4 cylinder attachment. The Lyc uses a flange on the base of the cylinder and short bolts (case through-bolts excepted). And they use the rather expensive method of threading the head and cylinder for head attachment. The VW uses long bolts to clamp both head and cylinder to the crankcase. Even at VW power levels, the long bolts can be an issue; case fretting, head gasket leaks, etc. And in the rotary, when the bolts stretch, bending loads get introduced partially replacing shear loads when the housings try to rotate past each other.

I suspect that all those issues would go away if the stack could be assembled with each layer being bolted into the previous one (offsetting the bolt points), but that would likely require non-identical components. Unlikely that Mazda would do it, because the normal method is 'good enough' for intended use, and *much* cheaper to manufacture.

Charlie

On 8/4/2020 9:44 AM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:
Ernest good question...........Need someone smarter than me for an opinion on that although I would think by eliminating the differences in expansion rates between
cast iron and aluminum would stop (or minimise ) movement of the side plates  .............

Kelly Troyer

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:07 AM Ernest Christley echristley@att.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Concerning the stacks moving with heat cycles:  Won't most of that go away when the plates and housing are made of the same materials?

On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


Kelly, 
The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong and isn’t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can’t make something that will live, just mentioning potential problems. You will need to make some mods to prevent problems.
Bill

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All,

      All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge
the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all alloy housings and  .500 inch studs...........

     Think about this hypothetical situation..............You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out with all the racing options available in a
drag race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What kind of bending and  torsional loads do
you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think about an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft
driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only............

    Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of course this is only my opinion and you know what
opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this group are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I have made the forum lively lately !!..........
 
   As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........

Best Regards,
Kelly Troyer 
     

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure. The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping pressure.   The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover   

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it possible be - why some of the early design  allumnium casted sumps, of the Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed type mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate, has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a solid unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and “dowls”
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i don’t know.

Cracked Sump

“I did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new sump within two months—and a Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.”


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its automotive layout doesn’t work well as the stack of plates and housings isn’t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda’s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don’t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness and housing location it isn’t a good idea to hang it from one of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails.




--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2


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