X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=XNg/xo2YH6Z0eaEyXoZSlw==:117 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=KD5oicS_CVUA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=TFCjIMvjLGgheyP-_HcA:9 a=d-FAYj-mitR4bVWy:21 a=poc1oHk6YyrcsbE_:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=D551Cg-C1K717KRV:21 a=z4e_a88wCDcHItEt:21 a=T48H62KEDGL_qzgO:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Ernest Christley echristley@att.net" Received: from sonic302-24.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.68.150] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 602866 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:07:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.137.68.150; envelope-from=echristley@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1596546425; bh=tPNBADulyDGLwTfS8+Vyn7h4pcY5q+O4NkLa1dJ9iv8=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=1V83MWlk5zGGQIq6E/tZwCdZn56K9CTSsQANITYINpQ4WCJxgGXacc59gxXc0oxzNECCKaOrAb6RJs4iE26Bt8GFnUgtY5R8IXCraSMB92LEVgZr5tyNSpjWpb4uc7QE3U20Cqviu6FfecmkvHudPt7s+sFBSKql/Ay7uats8bU= X-YMail-OSG: prFpnvoVM1k5V8U09cyZURqtqM8LBUYXxVKM6sI5Tv9yJM9j33xzE4VOYUo93Kg b1Xu1Qm7GsEhaOsQducsa9txBUy4xgqbrTVtuiXUnAeKoFe3xzRJNbVnJDemD3wBaN7JMKUnGynr kvC8B3V0VnkIiOCrXbu5hPMLtt5iM_u6497KoezeF8__e0G2mLETja27dX77HCJ7ZqG7mC8ZJmPz HaSI_gpdi9QsAnkBHQnBTurUkbZJO1KB.6dhq5322p.HKCgu6.6Zc7yZTQLFzDTsfDJU3gFI5aWi .NxEy7eUyNgS1gkH8lkeL9Yis9MbBe.9ZF4MnphXnXBOEEoLMd2V81fviIp253qa4p8Z1vHNeSNv VrzHMohn1x6qJcrobrSWFR445tjoQJPLxN0akKHlmS_OJLeVyFI6wlTY2SgHtNZY.tZgYGRiW8Sv xxu9hkl2w44C5EZLaXzPd5AreUh1ucBJXZOlwDLWd3opHggxFlqVSS7ZoBajjlhQ.6MIUj2LmB0Z xR2JIgFF9GKuW6uyag4HMrdiFPbTbDHSqTYKmNBNYuVkiz56BACvvvwkTssSeNw9iVw07tWEW9uz g_uJEBnUmg8S_T6jmOTHFFwWEJLTx9VcaqfGK40OJuZqtfalo1SUvBhRHLHK_2NcLB4FYXfMDLxH dIFWRG5stlK3HNRFlwrKVbBcK.WtdeNbWHnJdzN.lhduvTmn2GzVREeky.tc0MDkxjae0ZD41EW9 IZSoMFn2fMptZUs28VF470dLVfQyVjvJXd.3SfOu3j3EfArPobk1w6iGeID8rQC4hJZgXnPtMZku .Ile9mHVNhZFc6cfO3PoQBFH7RXqi_TEs2J0xrTRFIQ_otOts1kHiB8EpaihNMZ7oMOTiDEhtz2G 1sYDZnTm8uicWe_MvWCbhIIG34hUoDU8wzc9eSB7pSYxxgMtXP0IFRY_nEbgOi2F9dZxdrxBWEZb TmRDdBP0T2ejSGs5C.JAaJM0wy9RswLwMtjjacG8RSAda9OsBJZ4UzYICGG1Ni6eZT_Gzi_ML9WV J6YnLTUNUDD.h.bSnfoJNznek7qUPGL6QswF__bfw.BB4IXmEJTN8ueGOrze3qEBkD3yKOjIbBYR N_KrBZUXQ01IRTRzTg7VhLWX.fM3YkWHIj976IQIsm27mmYvGZHxfi6hyQOjoqlXK8k633nYZEYQ PKo2TWCmRdwbOyunmkHv0yhOozU99L0mXPQMdRF4BCoTtRXBd7gAoD2cePkGxECwjnPSoW0qxZjO CiPC9dab0MeVD3SiNsnjPAT2ovNGnaR.LduL5 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:07:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:07:01 +0000 (UTC) To: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Message-ID: <495191495.1138725.1596546421180@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1138724_270269183.1596546421177" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16397 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Content-Length: 18817 ------=_Part_1138724_270269183.1596546421177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Concerning the stacks moving with heat cycles:=C2=A0 Won't most of that go= away when the plates and housing are made of the same materials? On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.= com wrote: =20 =20 Kelly,=C2=A0The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full= temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a r= ace car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong a= nd isn=E2=80=99t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move wi= th repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something tha= t will live, just mentioning potential problems. You will need to make some= mods to prevent problems.Bill On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending= moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm= ) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledgethe "Mistral" side housings= were still cast iron (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft = in my opinion should=C2=A0have=C2=A0all alloy housings and=C2=A0 .500 inch = studs........... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Think=C2=A0about this hypothetical situation...........= ...You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) = and tricked out with all the racing options available in adrag race car....= .........It is supported from a center housing (as a stock engine).........= ...Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What kind of bendi= ng and=C2=A0 torsional loads doyou think this engine endures ??...........I= n Rotary racing circles this happens all the time with amazing reliability.= ..............Now think about an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircra= ftdriving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a = NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boost= ed to normalize only............ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted j= ust enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of cour= se=C2=A0this is only my opinion and you know whatopinions=C2=A0are worth...= ...........I understand that most of this group are interested in the 13BRE= W or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I have made the forum lively= lately !!..........=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0As things progress or digress I will= let the forum know until=C2=A0told to stop............Many thanks to Charl= ie for resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my h= ands)........ Best Regards,Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension bolts.= The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage torsional = loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not at all uncommo= n to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and alignment hole= in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure. The studs provi= de more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings in the correct s= hape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor face during combus= tion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that the rotor housing= s have a hint of black death (similar to black death on the sides of piston= s) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is the housing moving= on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down between bolt head and = the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping pressure.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly in the holes. S= o the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. One at a time..= ..so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP and less wear. N= otice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the center iron so as= to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it possible = be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the Mist= ral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed type m= ount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate, has = a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a solid un= it, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80=9D It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these lo= ads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.The torque loads of the = prop and all ads up. Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i don= =E2=80=99t know. Cracked Sump =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one w= as a crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests.= Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they confir= med they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they tested. They= designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on the other sump= s, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a temporary replaceme= nt until the new sumps would be produced to replace all present sumps. I de= cided to wait, and got my new sump within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral = engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D Sent from my iPhoneLe Roux Breytenbach On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com wrote: Charlie, and everyone rotary,I can see the desire to put a rotary in a simi= lar mount to a standard aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that= a Mazda wankel in its automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the s= tack of plates and housings isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending= moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s racing engines they added plates to enable them= to hang the engine from one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc en= gine shown in the example has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where = the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some mod= ifications for axial stiffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good= idea to hang it from one of the end plates.Bill Jepson On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England wrote= : There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down to = around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails. =20 ------=_Part_1138724_270269183.1596546421177 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Concerning the stacks moving= with heat cycles:  Won't most of that go away when the plates and hou= sing are made of the same materials?

=20
=20
On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jeps= on wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


Kelly, 
=
The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full t= emperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a rac= e car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong and= isn=E2=80=99t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move with= repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that = will live, just mentioning potential problems. You will need to make some m= ods to prevent problems.
Bill

On Mo= n, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer kelt= ro@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Blll , Lynn , Le Ro= ux and All,

      All very valid concerns about= engine twist and bending moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did n= ot use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge
the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy)..........= ...A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all= alloy housings and  .500 inch studs...........

     Think about this hypothetical situation........= ......You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno h= p) and tricked out with all the racing options available in a
dra= g race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a stock en= gine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What= kind of bending and  torsional loads do
you think this engi= ne endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this happens all the time = with amazing reliability...............Now think about an all alloy 20B (bo= osted or NA) in an aircraft
driving only a propeller (no shock lo= ads) built to racing standards as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flo= wn between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only............
<= div>
    Again the same engine (running at 6000 to = 7000 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B= )...........Of course this is only my opinion and you know what
<= div>opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this gro= up are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admi= t I have made the forum lively lately !!..........
 
   As things progress or digress I will let the forum know unt= il told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my phot= os for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........

Best Regards,
Kelly Troyer 
 =    

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at = 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com &= lt;flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the = upper tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs = to manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it wa= s not at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break ou= t and alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil press= ure. The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housi= ngs in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the roto= r face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find th= at the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on= the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This i= s the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down be= tween bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clampin= g pressure.   The case bolts used in high output engines fit snug= ly in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torque= d. One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add H= P and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the= center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover  &n= bsp;

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net wr= ites:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design  allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80= =9D
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in t= hese loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don=E2=80=99t know.

Cracked Sump

=E2=80=9CI did have a couple of= teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast= engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual= fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the sam= e area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, bu= t never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models we= re made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be= produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new s= ump within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral engineer came and installed it = for me.=E2=80=9D


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and housi= ngs isn=E2=80=99t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80= =99s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine fro= m one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the examp= le has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you = don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial st= iffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from o= ne of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:


On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
There are 8 pics in this series. My image r= esizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to = come in 8 separate emails.


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