X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=5S/jjbM1UaigdmwgCNJ7BQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=uJPufcyCQsk8uSgY6P8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=hOeugfDNugLPnndKC-oA:9 a=uvOK2GZd_M0_dz40:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com ([209.85.167.175] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 602134 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 02:42:19 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.175; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id u24so25581926oiv.7 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 23:42:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tHCVS/jDegQwia4N8HR2JYGPV1ZSLFq9kSTHvuBCU7g=; b=fyR6c6IxaLBopU1Gq2nl+pMBOm6AG20NdU0tBt05U6PRJewpcXA92LD7I1GG+mwTXk KfxaS9ChmXbXVE+L5/ii6NW/PDaQca1dWPfKCZKPPQcrrDaw85sU+b+rUo6zkesCIVMV Lm3+/TdQgWtdqNBYNma+pZZUMqm7uWetDU/6qsz2t7CRjUku4mOSwmhP2ZHVQmK/hacZ x7P5DXvOxPVe4wH6drquyRen3uPSiF7oj7a7c7ETlfzuL1kpvnsgb7yBE2035n8j4Cnz D4BxbiiPs8b3XLD3qetYxm5AIY6yscD5ahjAU/eeZrtuaOK0KOEDRpu9bF3qhvcUaDVd gI5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=tHCVS/jDegQwia4N8HR2JYGPV1ZSLFq9kSTHvuBCU7g=; b=lGWKs6blTWt+f6yi6yK43ULpCZ5rS4xqzRuxw8zlQbQQ63C0fVlhh6yNKxlaZT0J8K n7TN6bu84hA1ppnKjMfJ/u2BvTHBrF2ODansmNaWEK44qYSrFfDRBotkTPmp8dhNh/DV VhRNtCdxaC4qB1X4W4flFZhawK0l0sRPNaXIf8B1+tSZP4/wPVbuc0+Y6C1+QdwRLArv Yfa4Z8A/y2qQw4A2VvBjnaIwhzZUKGTEJM6AKBrgxbvXrzn2H6FprP4rfuTZbGDYIr2U CTQNPzi0q7Hy4zwoSGC6ETT/k7AeOSpwHFR+0c9tLTKlhfLxH+frhgJRB3n7RBEcX1y7 Hx0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533RtOD+G362iIJ+7AyIRxv1jdQi8rKPVDo+el8tljESEHl4zMjC egAxEslGqXIL0vYqbPFPReYX5lKjhWKxoSjpFD+J X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUsB4meFJUTFAdfES6heJN+ekrYy7oCX6NhJiPRSYgBq0N+WM4q1jekX22DF2CDNKaEZQc9SKJkadwZQbGr+c= X-Received: by 2002:aca:7583:: with SMTP id q125mr2312950oic.142.1596523323570; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 23:42:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 23:41:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093bf4005ac078d37" --00000000000093bf4005ac078d37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave; What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? Todd Bartrim On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. > > Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its > proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be > giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps > you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not goi= ng > to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to > achieve it. > > The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it > ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. > I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see wh= at > I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for > about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runnin= g > over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably onl= y > lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. > The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and > decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k > altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. > > My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f > valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my > installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the > exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you ca= n > get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you > need. > > Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are > realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to > fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste > various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the > internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try > to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away > from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You wi= ll > find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily > available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an > aircraft. > > Best, > Dave Leonard > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Group, >> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as= to >> not get into >> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >> >> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >> >> Kelly troyer >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also hav= e >>> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >>> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >>> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >>> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. T= hink they >>> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying= to >>> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you tal= k to >>> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tu= rbos >>> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >>> >>> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much= to >>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler tha= t >>> may fit. >>> >>> Best, Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience= is >>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage f= or >>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >>> >>> >> >> --00000000000093bf4005ac078d37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave;
=C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off valve = for your oil?

Todd Bartri= m


On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard = wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:
Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my pos= t above.

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as k= eeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you= are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your = post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in= mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unl= ess you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= div>
The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It = and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and o= nly for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 = I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a little = over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2= =A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's= very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that lon= g because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turbo im= ploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and decided = to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17= .5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

=
My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut= -off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my in= stallation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil= into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil = before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly = n/a as long as you need.

Play around with that spr= eadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how much = boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turb= o to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps o= nto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of t= he relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the t= urbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the 'su= rge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You wi= ll find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily = available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an = aircraft.

Best,
Dave Leonard
=
On Mon= , Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= br>
Group,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet = but when I purchased my turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E5= 0 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not get into=C2=A0
any= overspeed problems..........FWIW


Kelly troyer

On Mon, Aug 3, 202= 0 at 4:51 PM 12348u= ng@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do = you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 = to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having thi= s expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:0= 7 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= br>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft<= u>

=C2=A0

James,

I had m= y stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have opti= ons for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrad= e.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo m= aps that you can find in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E5= 0 to top out around 350hp at sea level.

=C2=A0

A= ttached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various p= arameters in selecting a turbo.

=C2=A0

Dave Leon= ard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com &= lt;flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:

James,<= u>

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim a= nd Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2= =A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for = my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quot= es between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one = looks set to go while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an o= ffer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2= =A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have not facto= red as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
T= o: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=

=C2=A0

= Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size)= for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appre= ciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft... or = so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for turbos. = Thanks, James Whitehurst



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