X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jdnXIUXoLiUkxhCtc3+ExA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=ko_qIcpEb2jSg_zN5mEA:9 a=PLZYNoEIb1RwfXtW:21 a=JM9JWfsdxJjp-2vi:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=7lJyvTcB4NwJWFWH0kEA:9 a=nBJgYJ5vBAe_WsEE:21 a=yL2sIq9KmSEMP0QU:21 a=YGUqlqOy1jWulGMO:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lf1-f46.google.com ([209.85.167.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 601146 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:38:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.46; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-f46.google.com with SMTP id i80so21297144lfi.13 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=185iPBe6iv2Km0vyA/wXq/v3gdVXXfbepOD/E8RZYtg=; b=cgY0+iQ/rzm5Uh43Bx4ijnyjp3HODv9HImwI25aTeeqICGOH4fwB5oi8mLzskdtIbA m8MqYFyfMc+SC/8vmytzNU4Xn78oz1kA0tk4zjDBO2cqxrh5KaVSceEhTNMFHKcTmwTM zr6GJKsSyVOf2099+2n+9D1LK5f0JAEqe6/HJC6GsaB1JrnWHs+rSmugoHIx0IORp7XV 47krGXkbFxN45mHUChI96z4JBm8Gy5NE5LRjSfYdAVrohFxPuXamyncC1eJ6UkKvwwmu 5M2wgaUZe9rrVjlGRMb78GktzxPqr3eXnlE+wnFlBIOthC8Av7/eN0eGi1BHvD2SeX4A 63ZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=185iPBe6iv2Km0vyA/wXq/v3gdVXXfbepOD/E8RZYtg=; b=OtHyqWL88VmWGK9Aw+5g/mO2tQTeed+o3MUQ0bnUFeoSypzKH32OdCJKgwiT0kb6uc ph4EtxaoCncC4N2t4578bYy34bFxo6KSgKFWPCQxhpZdYJaYrgRwpEc/rA4qRDbFC/0+ 4zoJsZHg2DYKGPDJQFJIsEzDEu5ANqUWIRgRyAeOUbaSOJMvayNnxo9KE0+DyktEvc5y Kw07HAnJjG+w0ZB3o+6x8Q86AEaKRbIr0jWdDMb+3iwS0ZsHMyHldtUu+kDYYqWbvw0y YJn/eDv0u1qLYUplGx0sDyKzrTQzn0TknMlHC17KTUQ+qXT1g70idCCH8UFF68d09xBt GW+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323+c9ZYZUKM18MGx+uSbwbEEWW/llRyAvhqd+A+o8xCVbumZoW rBgKmydGYOiC4exkiTqJmIe+UqEV8iUEtM+g+YdMXA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwpTNP7H1B9dJ/qqg2ljJ0IZjXiulsJwcsxmSyU7IRrwAmejg/XYy5bvbKzzozNr2tyKew4p7nZZNnmXw/ega0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4857:: with SMTP id v84mr9260054lfa.195.1596494279830; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:37:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:35:29 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f721305ac00ca72" --0000000000006f721305ac00ca72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all alloy housings and .500 inch studs........... Think about this hypothetical situation..............You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out with all the racing options available in a drag race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What kind of bending and torsional loads do you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think about an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only............ Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of course this is only my opinion and you know what opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this group are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I have made the forum lively lately !!.......... As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........ Best Regards, Kelly Troyer On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension > bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage > torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not at > all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and > alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure. > The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings > in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor > face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find th= at > the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on > the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This = is > the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down > between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more > clamping pressure. The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugl= y > in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued= . > One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP > and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the > center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover > > In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it possibl= e > be - why some of the early design allumnium casted sumps, of the Mistral= 3 > rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed type mount > for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate, has a l= ot > to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a solid unit, = as > well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80=9D > It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these > loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps. > The torque loads of the prop and all ads up. > > Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic > Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i > don=E2=80=99t know. > > Cracked Sump > > =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one= was a > crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. > Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they > confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they > tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on > the other sumps, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a > temporary replacement until the new sumps would be produced to replace al= l > present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new sump within two months= =E2=80=94and > a Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D > > > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach > > On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Charlie, and everyone rotary, > I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard > aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its > automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and ho= usings > isn=E2=80=99t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s rac= ing engines they > added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one end. They still > used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase > halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t pla= n to build > the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness and housing locati= on > it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from one of the end plates. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England > wrote: > > There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down t= o > around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails. > > > --0000000000006f721305ac00ca72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All very valid concerns about engine twist and bend= ing moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 = inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge
the= "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy)............= .A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should=C2=A0have=C2=A0all a= lloy housings and=C2=A0 .500 inch studs...........

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Think=C2=A0about this hypothetical situation..........= ....You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp)= and tricked out with all the racing options available in a
drag = race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a stock engi= ne)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What k= ind of bending and=C2=A0 torsional loads do
you think this engine= endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this happens all the time wi= th amazing reliability...............Now think about an all alloy 20B (boos= ted or NA) in an aircraft
driving only a propeller (no shock load= s) built to racing standards as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown= between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only............

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 70= 00 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B).= ..........Of course=C2=A0this is only my opinion and you know what
opinions=C2=A0are worth..............I understand that most of this group= are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit = I have made the forum lively lately !!..........
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until= =C2=A0told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos= for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........
<= br>
Best Regards,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upp= er tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to = manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was n= ot at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out a= nd alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure= . The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings= in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor f= ace during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that = the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on th= e sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is t= he housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down betwe= en bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping p= ressure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly = in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. = One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP a= nd less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the ce= nter iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80= =9D
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in t= hese loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don=E2=80=99t know.

= Cracked Sump

=E2=80=9CI did have a couple of = teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast = engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual = fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the same= area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but= never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models wer= e made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be = produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new su= mp within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral engineer came and installed it f= or me.=E2=80=9D


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.co= m <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and housi= ngs isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80= =99s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine fro= m one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the examp= le has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you = don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial st= iffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from o= ne of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England = ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:


There are 8 pics in this series. My image re= sizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need = to come in 8 separate emails.


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