X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=b0t/4yIpjgUIHaEJP7s7lQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=KD5oicS_CVUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=85cnskn9mD7V-EcwaaEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=S1UmVJ8olv0fan3q:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic317-27.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.82] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 600926 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:26:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.129.82; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1596489978; bh=KZ37UCAu/jQJvvshShXR9ZL/lmUs7h/2P+A1afZXyQU=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ZEZTrfFa8DGm8c2+ORVcjzBak2wC4h0a3HM8vIoTWVCT1713A1Qo6H+SmqbD9Yhkxs8v0dZoaOZTfDhgEh/w0xPFiyS9oRgHbvLhwM1yYMQazn0I9kXzwEaAofSMnmFK39xKH7oEfhzdPXvZlcqvcgv4XFQdcE1xv9sP5z7SH3Oc3iS++lIs/Q8rKksovZJOCyUdQfYRT0L02iKOh+Nlkp2ZwjIfeB+fy8I3yXaSzIGGqaBljEylbVzFWtbKvGYWpc2IrqmGl4jDSe+CGOA5ZdIWmmL3XievODrNy+Rj51QXXIcZY2p5jVheBLgZRQwhB5O0PmS7UpNwSmvHhXx0wA== X-YMail-OSG: K0YAit0VM1lyhp.ninhhDahrBrFwB5gV.mKmWx0OrszscPDmhCQJDeCrtj31bYQ vZle0APewf7svZVVsqdaT_zGJCOD_naB2lTUNm09ZNM00XxA7DiCd0fncxJt.ipdgv8Y1fsBRPUJ KC9btzO4O924RRwE8PfZcysK5HPwtrs1Sfv2cHhJCTd8B2l6Tld7Fc8fpgL3orJD7XeTaWho7IFF kW0D9B36eq2HF6YfflhxOOC2H1Zt7EUFbM_WwOtD_rWrKEX1Gjta9xAAdH.hk3CP0pQCY7ZZ68DO mVOqRbA.JGiGasZnXOGSBjKWDio0BHR45cINHEywcU7yaOOphBiDMBHroQvFzMFs0XFZXFvEsiUc oIRvGjK5wp76wranGmtU0WRBACFM4BgoLnrKFFIPhbRCN4i6BLcSnUKgEr5lRamXB4yUc133lOs2 TKR_37LeWfcmEfVbsmdevaNIL4O.5q8qeYGxJ7fcAm5DL0LHH4kdTnFQNXcrbjvFqjnUlXGDCjQC ZuCP1ptyrTAW12tOH7jXAq01FcoeJMtemo3NQhAYIIW9myAxY4hK3hQQnUQOXJJL9GBR8lujtZy8 l2bKy5_mfpA51qV3_udA.uRwC5lYrgFXKH.LhvGwJ5ZC_K.4XE2.vF8uwh2.JMcfMwCf5ZgT52y7 ULrdxZdG0LlWEoN3cIaozwg5W9dMttc8Qd.JsniEwSPx1FsCJJqsO.D4_YI1MsuVphX8d5qQTtnn E3or4aVmy6xfl4R4WJyiFDqi.ln3zTyBviZ9BEaCB_eYnXLWTe5yPwa8WUl.c6H8HN3dfWYRdecj aTQPEoYcap5xOcMHYEa4INSSYFHkjDTL1XUOpgnQow1DySDmsr5ptTVAc.DjGJlxJLdVxi47tP3x T6Hd1pm9S7G1u.6IWreTFb7F8y.RjJB8V3yKGqmG8i7q5QQ7A1SSW7Hk0ixm0ZpmHrLJPAPvBPTO ClPrCyZEbOW_W8PY25CPYf8qV2k17O.viy8lbt5EjqAYbTkWMtqXlGoovXuOZelX6wDAmtNO3OAk pM6WPGavIF3I_x_V57x645Rh4b7cR1r7EUNieFMYGF9QXyceuuNfunYyCCAODfgzH6BEhyPhW9T9 Hk.qTdVZGnlIXS85ZzJtQw8SCVl53ROECLipcap4gzfTsr6GQaWZ_kNS3tQ9JXe4hh9VbRNsXoKd JYa8i2t8qT3FTPWvCKjKD4G2pbPbEUUUQLbiDBtszYAqH112d4GnwBkajP0npr_xzdtUdS2xJa5i H.q6sw7oh_y04rRnvTWSAXKJrxrOv4K9_pGd1N93qXpOV9oveGyNgwiLOL0cBdQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:26:18 +0000 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:26:17 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <1851177139.53861.1596489977713@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_53860_1717316898.1596489977711" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16397 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_252) Content-Length: 11376 ------=_Part_53860_1717316898.1596489977711 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension bolts.= The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage torsional = loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not at all uncommo= n to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and alignment hole= in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure. The studs provi= de more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings in the correct s= hape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor face during combus= tion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that the rotor housing= s have a hint of black death (similar to black death on the sides of piston= s) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is the housing moving= on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down between bolt head and = the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping pressure.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly in the holes. S= o the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. One at a time..= ..so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP and less wear. N= otice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the center iron so as= to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it possible = be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the Mist= ral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed type m= ount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate, has = a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a solid un= it, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80=9D It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these lo= ads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.The torque loads of the = prop and all ads up. Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i don= =E2=80=99t know. Cracked Sump =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one w= as a crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests.= Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they confir= med they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they tested. They= designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on the other sump= s, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a temporary replaceme= nt until the new sumps would be produced to replace all present sumps. I de= cided to wait, and got my new sump within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral = engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D Sent from my iPhoneLe Roux Breytenbach On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com wrote: Charlie, and everyone rotary,I can see the desire to put a rotary in a simi= lar mount to a standard aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that= a Mazda wankel in its automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the s= tack of plates and housings isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending= moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s racing engines they added plates to enable them= to hang the engine from one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc en= gine shown in the example has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where = the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some mod= ifications for axial stiffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good= idea to hang it from one of the end plates.Bill Jepson On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England wrote= : There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down to = around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails. -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html ------=_Part_53860_1717316898.1596489977711 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The bending loads are carried for the most part by th= e upper tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting stud= s to manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it = was not at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break = out and alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pre= ssure. The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor hou= sings in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the ro= tor face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find = that the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death = on the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This= is the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down = between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamp= ing pressure.   The case bolts used in high output engines fit sn= ugly in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torq= ued. One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add= HP and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on t= he center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover  =  

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design  allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and “dowls”<= br>It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these= loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don’t know.

= Cracked Sump

&ld= quo;I did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one was a = crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mist= ral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they confirmed t= hey had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they tested. They desi= gned a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so= none of the new models were made. I was offered a temporary replacement un= til the new sumps would be produced to replace all present sumps. I decided= to wait, and got my new sump within two months—and a Mistral enginee= r came and installed it for me.”

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.co= m <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn’t work well as the stack of plates and housing= s isn’t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda’s ra= cing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one e= nd. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has = 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don&rsq= uo;t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness a= nd housing location it isn’t a good idea to hang it from one of the e= nd plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5= :45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= /div>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7= :40 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:=
There are 8 pics in this series. My image = resizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to= come in 8 separate emails.

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= UnSub:   http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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