X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=aTL5S57ZQgueWqBheg4P7g==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=UGPbi4W8cgQxvnD-C1gA:9 a=P213MkmB2f_5DXBy:21 a=zc93d7h1T_jb99Re:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=nIlBwxPAqhCIARi0b3AA:9 a=tcllAAAiiMCK8-Ct:21 a=ozoKnx4hUjM530ZK:21 a=OQw19d8VAJT5ZttS:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f176.google.com ([209.85.208.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 510790 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 17:43:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.176; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f176.google.com with SMTP id h19so4055714ljg.13 for ; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5UB+YF+3MrZsw+h6c0c283502a6hYPjjs3YKqViXq9c=; b=G9QjbqxeIF/25M8RXZvvZOIZlF99O6ri+9968kmWGmP++V4umHUCaegc8f18vlLkaf s1qfrFZqq48yw2c9FOL0IwwvS5X6hlW+N8K6WKFHbC5+rQV4ge7vgiQJc5p3cDWFicdM bX3hLvSNpzxzg4hj+n210gbxDeD8E5QQcfKme8Uaay7IBSWaLZvnCKv3Jh8uu1q5LOqi 3reWammdkEaPI753Nj/sohLtjCNqJKWEY6XwciNdoUqfq+gor+nxnlKlCaaH5f6/klko 2O8GT45K6gBpS15oa4VJBaRVyLcAO5N9Tlr2FJQenHw3KqQG/nQb5hMFaTAKVOz6LDob r7Sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5UB+YF+3MrZsw+h6c0c283502a6hYPjjs3YKqViXq9c=; b=SAXSpEpc8USoAN+RIKfbn1bcI3svPWlAUlILmvE81ql5rZ9xjKppccM59tboxDMvkB /HdBYjGiw2i24bFLjvK8ddxmu5jtGBFXDuDDkMMCkfqsn1bU6xUS843Mdh+YkvTD6cuy RW6AlasATYi7vJQ7uw7l8bwWM84G1rqDaMZclVZETiLsl+Be9d2ahNo28U1LBdpN1vnI EP5TePBe8YeovzVc6DDAwOPFJJ+xiI0XAsNmeUp/mZPdM8b0iVKHpoTM4fhPiUvSZPLa XP2b5AQPp7kn2BTyvsqYn2y0WAqkJ2/3Aqw8Z8jTX1EKHcgLKEI7CWIU6wlGPQYupHo0 QTMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oLBgXfvXPYMMIVLxPdb9ucn4LDe11+ugvMFQFWlXAqJwelJdO RDcan5wE7JA6aTkJ9lEjXaB4IDrgimQV1Ln78kTurA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxdA4R5nSoz7+PBP3A5OVCF2iAgUTKq8lvNkGkChaBKiRrkYnWS3Cy6VD72tvfQdNCHxm1FLWCBm+5MHMwVycM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90d8:: with SMTP id o24mr7112129ljg.278.1594330986182; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:43:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:40:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015fa1805aa091c5a" --00000000000015fa1805aa091c5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc & Lynn Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to the front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring......... Thanks, Kelly Troyer On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a > cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black > plate).............LEH > > In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > > > Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest > back when. > > Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my ha= rd drive, > I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came fr= om > originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80= =98Steve=E2=80=99. > Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that > makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of = them I have > just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side > Housing > > > > Le Roux, > > Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from > the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side > housing / accessory drive > > that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated > the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine > mount..........This is > > what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come up > with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the > accessory drives and using the > > stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electri= c > airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach > breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > > Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in Apri= l > 2011 > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTR= AL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTR= AL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg > > > > > > > Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral > mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and > mounting > > Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 > > > https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ > > > Le Roux > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave & Charlie, > > > Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front > cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the > Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this > > as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I > have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port= " > 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C= ) > > side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its > mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a > cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other > > housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest > "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount > points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) an= d > > only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the > engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engine= s > they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their > parts > > were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my > engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to b= e > certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing > trail..........So they made > > engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock > "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft > use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that we= re > not > > adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps > will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... > > > Best, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Charlie and Mark, > > Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be > replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replica= te > the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric > > shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline > and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree > "Dyna1" mount system............. > > > Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyn= a > focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 > in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to > > further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the > O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over > 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and > > that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much > lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used allo= y > housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never > > heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their > engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven > one way or another in actual use..........IMHO > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b > designs? > > M > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Kelly, > > The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worke= d > out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold > side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to > eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and > move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not > recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do > it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. YM= MV > > Bill Jepson > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capabi= lity > to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing > machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these engines* > > > > > > > > > > > > *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as > used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 > engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at > thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this > product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested > this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are > capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo > boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair= 's > that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in > engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are > producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines > that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are > turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good > reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing > hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this > product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or > con..............* > > > -- > > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --00000000000015fa1805aa091c5a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Marc & Lynn
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the &quo= t;Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look li= ke=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear= housings and will be "P" ported........Their
early 13B= engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is th= e early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover = into one unit that bolts to the=C2=A0
front iron and incorporates= the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their= electronic ignition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacu= um=C2=A0pump.........I did not get
the gears for this drive (less= expense)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to= a "Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring......= ...

Thanks,
Kelly Troyer

=
On Thu, Ju= l 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanov= er@aol.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:
In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front = iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the fron= t iron (black plate).............LEH

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

=C2=A0

Great stuff.<= span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> I saw and read that Kit= planes article with great interest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some = conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe th= ey are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came from originally = (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get t= hru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send l= arger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is th= e MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Fron= t Side Housing

=C2=A0

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of= questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mi= strals" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorpora= ted the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the L= ycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to c= ome up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the= accessory=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electr= ic airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach br= eytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines u= sed=C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount= points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1&quo= t; mount ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I= have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P = port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tr= actor A/C)

side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its = mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0int= o a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the o= ther

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........= The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cov= er but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially = a Bed type Mount) and

only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine= .........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development= the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" en= gines and all their parts

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my = engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0t= o be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail.= .........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock &= quot;Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for a= ircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts t= hat were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded b= ut perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engi= nes..........


Best,

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com= > wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2= =A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with bui= lt in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and loca= te the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline= and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 de= gree "Dyna1" mount system.............


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on us= ing the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about th= e need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sum= p to

further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the = O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 50= 0 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much li= ghter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B use= d alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have neve= r

heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their = engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven on= e way or another in actual use..........IMHO

Best

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.= net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b des= igns?

M

Sent from my iPad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson= wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but ha= s not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a ho= t and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is = no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to &quo= t;work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed m= ember is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyw= ay I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results=C2= =A0using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2= =A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda= Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0wo= uld allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engi= ne mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-= 10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This s= ide plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am = a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and w= hen it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested this side plat= e........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly
amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted......= ...The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that= use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........=

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs&= quot; are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 = engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There = are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world wit= h good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing = hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be in t= his product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro o= r con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0


--

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0



=C2=A0



--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.co= m/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
=


--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventua= lly"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--00000000000015fa1805aa091c5a--