X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=BpPjPrf5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=pQ7fURxOc4QfenwraHihsw==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=ad1WmcueCrwA:10 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=5DBFeqTRYEKvu6MAXmkA:9 a=U3_p0eV2splWXnX1:21 a=aFOkwKLq3VZ5kjYm:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=jieuRbKmt0kJN-3NEbIA:9 a=Z_8FeOJ7BXpo2HW-:21 a=oNi5W_L7sbyaymTJ:21 a=0h7UgLpX2Dpiku88:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f169.google.com ([209.85.208.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 13418076 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:09:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.169; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f169.google.com with SMTP id z22so4891768ljg.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:09:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/I4XIOf/doDBAuTtSMKmtXc3houWhqdJOnZHa2q35Wk=; b=peeOy8LTUACOJf46Yx0YuemMkXZkm/xZbXpNQmhFKc8uQhzlQiGVdVjiBLLGOwukO6 xmFhDYT0dfVidtfkd/TTwjwFZPW0XhjdGOvOpQ6axBRNKXKaRYNWiKCYr6tTd8qiDCds VRaIGosRraSEMGLPBhoHRnBQC5TxvS3TYnL2Ai1z+11aeIFQR3T4S2JNMg7ScQb7q/HK zEhFKTj9h+B2QYxlTgw1Ty2r4M+Zqu1l1ukQ4pNJggyseqiGm7dP5cVKtNF+vtT0o6CX L3llxErUc80G88Y636VzKJRcSHgeUyzmpeNYoqq6FcWHQkmVW18ZZANhpKTW942OjV+g 59hQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/I4XIOf/doDBAuTtSMKmtXc3houWhqdJOnZHa2q35Wk=; b=r2/SWWvjPtl58peF/ffWHc10D/PSm/4tyeixhv/bIl1OBi1iJFANhYd+1b+ox+x0sS A11bC9XvDCWwwUzNpcUZbONHWoLTBQMpH4hKt6KaIqJcQDhc9TixXGJzT+gAsLLWDVcz Hncm2Nbah52eCPLw4NFvspzuK+zdY6YXwaoBqnYXTsco80iv3WRsiqV2DZYFQCZ9rRHI lsBldF/Znoa5BrHlTmVlbsajyCytw8kjWtk4kfZzLdlslAJKt4KTKle/0QnwJSAm4nnI LV+k8bf95C2XWpRA0WuL93f9vYu5VKOkymyRjqbdLzDKgVoLj6iChdW/DbvM3jSFtnk8 fPhg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXu+VKLeymhim2jNByln+lD0+V7PDbjnbU+jdB/sPkPdS0Lp7M4 QOzzgs9Nv5J/0alpyxrANIZT9ZQAU8G8JbT65PX18Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqytOgNyZjscDXOrccTPr4IT1MsepLtyCEgEkiO8caNeR8SbVlsgdSVMM5gqWRY5Q0Uk6LqpZwNaRgqEFvAgmAk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8946:: with SMTP id b6mr52184ljk.1.1579806523255; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:08:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:08:32 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1edb8059cd35e77" --000000000000a1edb8059cd35e77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, I totally agree. My comment is based on personal experience on several racing engines on which I used the coating. The highest temps I saw are probably slightly lower than rotary exhaust temperature, but Jet Hot or similar cermet coating is just about the only thing with a chance of lasting. Otherwise I would go inconel with shielding. Bill On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:01 AM argoldman@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Just a thought, > > Jet hot is a great idea as it lessens the heat exchange from the exhaust > gasses to the outside due to IR radiation. It also may look great. Howeve= r > there may be a problem here in that the rotary (especially non-renesis) i= s > quite hot and restricting its loss through the pipe by coating might > quicken the demise of the pipes from the inside (which you won't be able = to > see). If you are going to coat, coat both the inside and outside of the > pipes. (slip joints may be a problem here but they are inspect-able). Of > course then there is the problem of the muffler. > > In an aircraft application, these pipes are subject to higher sustained > temperatures than our cylinder loving brethren. > > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2020 12:29 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers > > Guys, no paint is going to hold up. Look up Jet Hot. They have a very hig= h > temp cerment coating that is really rated to 1800 deg F. I=E2=80=99ve use= d it on > several race bikes. No flaking or degradation. Much higher temperature th= an > paint. For mufflers try looking up the Iannetti patent. Yes the same guy > doing the tip seals. He built a very effective muffler that he leased to > the rotary engine racers. At least until most racing groups banned the > rotary. > Bill > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:41 PM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Ok that makes more sense. I also painted my exhaust with supposedly > 2000=E2=98=80=EF=B8=8FF paint. Didn=E2=80=99t last long. > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 5:10 am, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Finn, Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only allows > the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exit completely through > the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together with the packing. The > exhaust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 inch pipe A bigger pipe m= ay > eliminate the slight power loss?? Originally just a straight through > muffler, now a "closed circuit" for want of a better description. THe > muffler runs red hot, so Chris shrouded it and put an air cooling blast > onto it which eliminated that problem. IN the photo you can see a horrib= le > paint job. That started out as top of the line high heat resistant paint > --- soon cooked that off, so that it looks like it does > Neil. > On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > > Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes? > Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't > produce any power at all :) > > Finn > On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side > of the center tube." So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the center tube= , > which blows out into the outer tube (that has the packing), then out the > 2.5" pipe. How does the packing not blow out the 2.5"? > > I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without > any??expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints. > > Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center tube. > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > Mat, > ?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am just the messenger.?? > The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?? (AES). (woolongong > Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the size (dia) of the holes at > just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? Packing is Innox?? wool which is > fine S/S.?? Too much and too little, both affect the result. Kev, claims > that he weighs the muffler when packing to get the right amount,?? says > that although not packed precisely even from end to end, it will even out > as it works. > The big can has the perforated tube running end to end which is hollow > (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox between the inne= r > perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The muffler shown, began life > as a straight through muffler which was mounted under the RV.?? Chris the= n > as usual adapted the muffler by cutting 3 x inlet holes right into the > hollow center tube, then welded it to the manifold plate.?? The 3 inlets > fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tried to see > what that has done to the "wool"opposite, and it appears to have blasted > some away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to find out = is > to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply cut anoth= er > hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and welded a 2.5" outlet.?= ? > Has done many successful hours Chris says.?? Chris cut off the 3" inlet a= nd > outlet tube and welded a plate over both ends to seal the whole muffler.?= ? > It fitted in the small space available and worked which is what matters > Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you chase > 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, and I suspect most others have little > idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? Watched many Utube > videos of blokes putting different mufflers on their cars to get a lovely > "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly successful according to the operators, bu= t > IMHO the results ranged from little difference to actually louder.?? > Perception and fact can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby > cries it is music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it! > Neil. > > On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess that is > way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the size of the pipe. > Did make design so I can drill out one cap and switch out the inner pipe > full of holes to test different back pressure.??Neil, can you confirm > 28%? ?? > > Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire right into > it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe? > > In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) exhaust > size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring them down to a > small constant flow, they say you can run smaller size. I did my downpipe > as 2.75" and will do the long exhaust underneath plane in 2.5" > > > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!! > > Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to the RX8 > engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes that amount > to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the > Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia is 5 " and the space > between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THis is the first bloke that can > tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his working life. > > JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still trying to > mount my turbo if I live long enough. > > More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag > > --000000000000a1edb8059cd35e77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich, I totally=C2=A0agree. My comment is based on p= ersonal experience on several racing engines on which I used the coating. T= he highest temps I saw are probably slightly lower than rotary exhaust temp= erature, but Jet Hot or similar cermet coating is just about the only thing= with a chance of lasting. Otherwise I would go inconel with shielding.
Bill

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:01 AM argoldman@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
Just a thought,

Jet hot is a great idea as it lessens the heat exchan= ge from the exhaust gasses to the outside due to IR radiation. It also may = look great. However there may be a problem here in that the rotary (especia= lly non-renesis) is quite hot and restricting its loss through the pipe by = coating might quicken the demise of the pipes from the inside (which you wo= n't be able to see). If you are going to coat, coat both the inside and= outside of the pipes. (slip joints may be a problem here but they are insp= ect-able). Of course then there is the problem of the muffler.

In an aircraft application, these pipes are subject t= o higher sustained temperatures than our cylinder loving brethren.


Rich


-----= Original Message-----
From: William Jepson = wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2020 12:29 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers

Guys, no paint is going to hold up. Look up Jet Hot. They have a very = high temp cerment coating that is really rated to 1800 deg F. I=E2=80=99ve = used it on several race bikes. No flaking or degradation. Much higher tempe= rature than paint. For mufflers try looking up the Iannetti patent. Yes the= same guy doing the tip seals. He built a very effective muffler that he le= ased to the rotary engine racers. At least until most racing groups banned = the rotary.
Bill

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:41 PM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:
Ok that makes more sense. I also painted my exhaust with supposedly 20= 00=E2=98=80=EF=B8=8FF =C2=A0paint. Didn=E2=80=99t last long.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 5:10 am, Neil Unger 12348u= ng@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20
=20
Finn,=C2=A0 Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only allows the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exi= t completely through the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together with the packing. The exhaust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 inch pipe=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A bigger pipe may eliminate= the slight power loss??=C2=A0 Originally just a straight through muffler, now a "closed circuit" for want of a better description.=C2=A0 TH= e muffler runs red hot, so Chris shrouded it and put an air cooling blast onto it which eliminated that problem.=C2=A0 IN the photo you can see= a horrible paint job.=C2=A0 That started out as top of the line high he= at resistant paint --- soon cooked that off, so that it looks like it does
=20
Neil.
=20
On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
=20 =20
Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes?
Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't produce any power at all :)

Finn
On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.c= om wrote:
=20 =20
What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube."= ; So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the center tube, which blows out into the outer tube (that has the packing), then out the 2.5" pipe. How does the packing n= ot blow out the 2.5"?

I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without any??expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints.

Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center tube. =20

=20
- Matt Boiteau
=20
On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20
=20
Mat,
=20
?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am just the messenger.?? The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?? (AES). (woolongong Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the size (dia) of the holes at just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? Packing is Innox?? wool which is fine S/S.?? Too much and too little, both affect the result. Kev, claims that he weighs the muffler when packing to get the right amount,?? says that although not packed precisely even from end to end, it will even out as it works.
=20
The big can has the perforated tube running end to end which is hollow (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox between the inner perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The muffler shown, began life as a straight through muffler which was mounted under the RV.?? Chris then as usual adapted the muffler by cutting 3 x inlet holes right into the hollow center tube, then welded it to the manifold plate.?? The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tried to see what that has done to the "wool"oppo= site, and it appears to have blasted some away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to find out is to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply cut another hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and welded a 2.5" outlet.?? Has done ma= ny successful hours Chris says.?? Chris cut off the 3" inlet and outlet tube and welded a plate over both ends to seal the whole muffler.?? It fitted in the small space available and worked which is what matters
=20
Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you chase 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, a= nd I suspect most others have little idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? Watched many Utube videos of blokes putting different mufflers on their cars to get a lovely "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly succ= essful according to the operators, but IMHO the results ranged from little difference to actually louder.?? Perception and fact can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby cries it is music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it!
=20
Neil.
=20

=20
On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
=20 =20
Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess that is way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the size of the pipe. Did make design so I can drill out one cap and switch out the inner pipe full of holes to test different back pressure.??Neil, can you confirm 28%? ??

Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire right into it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe?

In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) exhaust size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring them down to a small constant flow, they say you can run smaller size. I did my downpipe as 2.75" and will do the long exhaus= t underneath plane in 2.5"


=20

=20
- Matt Boiteau
=20
On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@g= mail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20
Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!!

Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to the RX8
engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes that amount
to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the
Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia i= s 5 " and the space
between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THi= s is the first bloke that can
tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his working life.

JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still trying to
mount my turbo if I live long enough.

More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil
--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
--000000000000a1edb8059cd35e77--