X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=BpPjPrf5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Hqw6W5Bss7tVrqubNWxOWg==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=ZPv60q_EFhsA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=rha0SP6NBwy9pUlN9c0A:9 a=deerHrKmTLISl3ef:21 a=ERuC14ER_VuyWbQB:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=GdzIYcegA49wMJ_KmTYA:9 a=YkO-szkknmG2s3sQ:21 a=jgOUnJMi3gDaJqzU:21 a=vbrbQRlex_lj00iH:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic303-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.148] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 13415164 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:48:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.188.148; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1579733298; bh=v1KcKmfGpGQK8JoFe3+GtHgWgjCY/vo+SdNGUkI3pN8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=CSTFnl8MaAKrqNBRdSkV83a33WLuhb09QaR5b49R1WiNRMKY4FACr96RmoGKRfqNmJKKQI+e5dLSxPfEHPCaXljx0ZcUUd7qyYoM55m/mJlD6ZKBhsmF16YljoJN19ikTO1dZLyYRypd83owUOxHAsrnBqv2uTGt75+3XocQPfjix4KtjjOvI0+gbjUHwRBPJLOmsUpgtMFm/Q2cWIPfjppT1QyVa9jopxxcR6ca4sPxHmKnMHkwKeWJvUKA72l0+CO5RMPYkr+E2Ug/FkPF+nH7vd+siqwhrhmIleTThs6Sx2zH59ljq/bl424+rbTP97XnTJwpN90Svp/IHM1Crg== X-YMail-OSG: R1c9xPAVM1mSb1IVfDyZNE0J5DP7IA6mOhPY5VVP_fBIKuJDqrvWuS3ecfIRip1 _NGmIj_.BWzRv0Qm.kQwcSnJRD.dqSlzhJYXGXpl.KJuAMXE7_2a8Gc7lodWNYfejduyg2yE297w qL7nYLduMQtdJ0Ak791uOnnP_VHOOubGdWl1drbv53OFnt01ThdTzvxW1XSb8lpBJLmizjWWwwBs hDn5wyrZH4a2PXd2U3bcrF7x_RVeFVBy497zmCwHTuR5DKI0W_H3c7Pe.0lvKzQ99n5Lzl.FHxrq rFI5nbBWWYZ0FDjSLmVGp904JIlZP72QNkKZZsJBvcB0V7AI1Ndkct.e3Ixfk3ZH95ejAMueYuG6 85U0QbCjpyh6aO0.QoWog5m9vHNijCWffQnbnZMaHPjfuxwiYRM3.jrF6paQL3S41astLHyYkCgp ZM6DMo72XlY.3WevYtgQgpwUoWXoEBMzi0SQRr5MOrvQcBjq5HCWxFI0x_b3NGqaLdGHuYzkw2aI tBInND9PacnzDlh5z2C8wI1bX_J7_GxNGJUkh1nKBTb3ABMiepg8YEfE8MXEsq6Bl2FksZFq703J StyaKzrzEx_l6k7WY1oQulIJzcDfCZqhvovLOKNvQcDzjNk8ET9U88rBq36t5jCZaIAznKUsusIM sjPOCJUw6A1joKJf9XOt51dVe8L3BSGQaOz1T.68AzfwKdubKMhaDhNFwYaEBtGzFCXJoXooaCl9 _exeWV7zvYHZ5gLHSZOkiW17qo38ja8NopvuuCfyL9MCeGa5aIhqwG.4WuCPuPxsZ9HwPAB.LOVR nl2Ha2oV1rLucP6gc1Pzpq5Aw9f1Wvid0oKYfXEUmfD94XsmeGIeKf.JpNEXs3kLMSC.Tg0wfJZ1 zCq2gO2UYKyEF266ZhZzjTN38QwbJ9jI2no5Sk9Z4A7_EgwmvO_tC3LRD9MVTBCAPU8T8XxRnEjE sEQgVzkspS8b1zhlYfP7ojxkH956VwiAoC1M07You1P2aFhVO5emcVQxHnDw51POkt2KBC9EG998 wr1K2H4vAQLRiczQ1YjESlTLABsFTjqr2OXAA9Pj5s1qRRebgPpz3yrmpM0tfr2H5Q6_NCkTz0wo yIKM1WpvcquDK13QQDLirc63fm7203LlNNb_abmwFQ_V2gopWqIjkuVK0EiMde9KI6SSLgpoG37b FudbeU9JE9V2dkFSnhPSAxmi02PDiGLD2BqLgiZcoTUEbek0ntGwlTC82pi_y.YWJvUEJcgej7h8 Sld_vxPguowe3Vs6i2LvdZufTXafUCnzrWGOOfGD29eCVT95AUgRlGP5jpJPKVo1K3cL7Ai5xZtQ pOWkbchXodkGO0taWx7YWE15y4pYx8br.vD9g_5G2kO__H3eGAahGRf1NLnKriC8YhVrBWjDIkN7 0846DbIdkGRSyCg0CTMVr7Jk- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 22:48:18 +0000 Received: by smtp429.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8bada03854dd4eb32891a86d2f72250c; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 22:48:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <64291031-0a6a-d94e-9c7a-381bdbc6b1bb@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:48:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C9AA0A2F0200DB1D4E5A7748" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15077 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) Content-Length: 19476 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C9AA0A2F0200DB1D4E5A7748 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh, I see. Finn On 1/22/2020 4:08 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: > > Finn,  Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only > allows the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exit > completely through the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together > with the packing. The exhaust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 > inch pipe    A bigger pipe may eliminate the slight power loss??  > Originally just a straight through muffler, now a "closed circuit" for > want of a better description.  THe muffler runs red hot, so Chris > shrouded it and put an air cooling blast onto it which eliminated that > problem.  IN the photo you can see a horrible paint job.  That started > out as top of the line high heat resistant paint --- soon cooked that > off, so that it looks like it does > > Neil. > > On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes? >> Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't >> produce any power at all :) >> >> Finn >> On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>> What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite >>> side of the center tube." So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the >>> center tube, which blows out into the outer tube (that has the >>> packing), then out the 2.5" pipe. How does the packing not blow out >>> the 2.5"? >>> >>> I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without >>> any??expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints. >>> >>> Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center >>> tube. >>> >>> - Matt Boiteau >>>> >>>> On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mat, >>>> >>>> ?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am just the >>>> messenger.?? The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?? >>>> (AES). (woolongong Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the >>>> size (dia) of the holes at just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? >>>> Packing is Innox?? wool which is fine S/S.?? Too much and too >>>> little, both affect the result. Kev, claims that he weighs the >>>> muffler when packing to get the right amount,?? says that although >>>> not packed precisely even from end to end, it will even out as it >>>> works. >>>> >>>> The big can has the perforated tube running end to end which is >>>> hollow (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox >>>> between the inner perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The >>>> muffler shown, began life as a straight through muffler which was >>>> mounted under the RV.?? Chris then as usual adapted the muffler by >>>> cutting 3 x inlet holes right into the hollow center tube, then >>>> welded it to the manifold plate.?? The 3 inlets fire directly onto >>>> the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tried to see what that >>>> has done to the "wool"opposite, and it appears to have blasted some >>>> away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to find out >>>> is to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply >>>> cut another hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and >>>> welded a 2.5" outlet.?? Has done many successful hours Chris >>>> says.?? Chris cut off the 3" inlet and outlet tube and welded a >>>> plate over both ends to seal the whole muffler.?? It fitted in the >>>> small space available and worked which is what matters >>>> >>>> Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you >>>> chase 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, and I suspect most others >>>> have little idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? >>>> Watched many Utube videos of blokes putting different mufflers on >>>> their cars to get a lovely "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly >>>> successful according to the operators, but IMHO the results ranged >>>> from little difference to actually louder.?? Perception and fact >>>> can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby cries it is >>>> music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it! >>>> >>>> Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess >>>>> that is way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the >>>>> size of the pipe. Did make design so I can drill out one cap and >>>>> switch out the inner pipe full of holes to test different back >>>>> pressure.??Neil, can you confirm 28%? ?? >>>>> >>>>> Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire >>>>> right into it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe? >>>>> >>>>> In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) >>>>> exhaust size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring >>>>> them down to a small constant flow, they say you can run smaller >>>>> size. I did my downpipe as 2.75" and will do the long exhaust >>>>> underneath plane in 2.5" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Matt Boiteau >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!! >>>>>> >>>>>> Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to >>>>>> the RX8 >>>>>> engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes >>>>>> that amount >>>>>> to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the >>>>>> Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia is 5 " and the space >>>>>> between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THis is the first bloke >>>>>> that can >>>>>> tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his >>>>>> working life. >>>>>> >>>>>> JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still >>>>>> trying to >>>>>> mount my turbo if I live long enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --------------C9AA0A2F0200DB1D4E5A7748 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Oh, I see.

Finn

On 1/22/2020 4:08 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote:

Finn,  Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only allows the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exit completely through the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together with the packing. The exhaust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 inch pipe    A bigger pipe may eliminate the slight power loss??  Originally just a straight through muffler, now a "closed circuit" for want of a better description.  THe muffler runs red hot, so Chris shrouded it and put an air cooling blast onto it which eliminated that problem.  IN the photo you can see a horrible paint job.  That started out as top of the line high heat resistant paint --- soon cooked that off, so that it looks like it does

Neil.

On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes?
Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't produce any power at all :)

Finn
On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube." So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the center tube, which blows out into the outer tube (that has the packing), then out the 2.5" pipe. How does the packing not blow out the 2.5"?

I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without any??expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints.

Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center tube.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Mat,

?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am just the messenger.?? The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?? (AES). (woolongong Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the size (dia) of the holes at just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? Packing is Innox?? wool which is fine S/S.?? Too much and too little, both affect the result. Kev, claims that he weighs the muffler when packing to get the right amount,?? says that although not packed precisely even from end to end, it will even out as it works.

The big can has the perforated tube running end to end which is hollow (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox between the inner perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The muffler shown, began life as a straight through muffler which was mounted under the RV.?? Chris then as usual adapted the muffler by cutting 3 x inlet holes right into the hollow center tube, then welded it to the manifold plate.?? The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tried to see what that has done to the "wool"opposite, and it appears to have blasted some away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to find out is to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply cut another hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and welded a 2.5" outlet.?? Has done many successful hours Chris says.?? Chris cut off the 3" inlet and outlet tube and welded a plate over both ends to seal the whole muffler.?? It fitted in the small space available and worked which is what matters

Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you chase 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, and I suspect most others have little idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? Watched many Utube videos of blokes putting different mufflers on their cars to get a lovely "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly successful according to the operators, but IMHO the results ranged from little difference to actually louder.?? Perception and fact can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby cries it is music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it!

Neil.


On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess that is way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the size of the pipe. Did make design so I can drill out one cap and switch out the inner pipe full of holes to test different back pressure.??Neil, can you confirm 28%? ??

Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire right into it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe?

In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) exhaust size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring them down to a small constant flow, they say you can run smaller size. I did my downpipe as 2.75" and will do the long exhaust underneath plane in 2.5"



- Matt Boiteau

On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!!

Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to the RX8
engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes that amount
to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the
Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia is 5 " and the space
between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THis is the first bloke that can
tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his working life.

JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still trying to
mount my turbo if I live long enough.

More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil

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Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
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