X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=BpPjPrf5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=G36Dz7pLIlQEX1qW0uezFw==:117 a=B8PDgl8qUVeOwhCkz8FinA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=8uaU8uBYAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=jThZ7_-JAAAA:8 a=so9YHBa4Nu7rT-t8UUYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=2LLaq0oT88IhTqJn2s0A:9 a=oKL0wyiDhKono9GH:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=ig8txPJwn2AfLL9XIXE4:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=NVbvhy2gKIdozzgvQOKv:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-yw1-f51.google.com ([209.85.161.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 13407237 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:57:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.51; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-yw1-f51.google.com with SMTP id l14so272466ywj.9 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=7ti0TOxFet68kCcZo8+2V9GRWfFtEz53vU4reQIA9no=; b=U3xsPqfeuNVy5eGBAVAflR+KKKZOhVdYGtbqbnTKkD6QGXvMj6GzkOs9hG9o3+sZrX tjd6ZUPWr330qfA7DW7djHezYBEM4rnUBmpmn2BYZf+J1YWFiL2zzxP3FfdJrdJSl3sB TDufBZ09Ff1ODFf5FBIbpGqxP2ARGqSorEl+n77h6f79JqXRXXamZNE0Y2VaUUf7WyTK oPzlNZqv2JuIBNprHJPYjI0vvyMGWR78R3zGLTfeJHLEVSMQ2w21rzWaR/8eaoDk3lw6 if8ylvU4gRuMnjZNg/B92OBeKTaezoIsxWxSpjaHCFJ6xriIaLaCbi+st23+a9u88rA3 FOJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=7ti0TOxFet68kCcZo8+2V9GRWfFtEz53vU4reQIA9no=; b=c4CAUi6TFiDM9tnI9SRiUyYCVwH/SsmYoGLVzQhZ/i9oZ41/iag4BbJOP+OvdIMPc+ FUOpiz7WnZQTn5J8E9e2qkf6kX77ZU1IdirDKAoVL3gO89JYiSLGumhypxEHq7PH1iOn 36uTIYuJd6uOv2rbyE96WR5xso4bHJzw7IVKXQ1WVgZ/5XF/JFwLTNsNmWjRiQ9KfgTv qtBXNiljqkYtm/apR33WeJFVW9+pmMbx7T5r+OwB2hsA0RFQek5+I7iiEgMGRlKTn45I 0J9EHr4ZX9iWa5am7TzQGVge+tbtvfuAmCy7UOK3lkPeOmSKo5zhrL3eOhrD3yZPIA5F G1vA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAULALNKJAPrf6HXxNJA5kGg/KSERSBk5IfDc48onEdOQFyDe7GT Jdy+t30XuNI5rwoGF06IFLagcXiX X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy/DGPa8p3WaIq3PVW9qMswdAgJgSPW/LoMIQj2bwJ6xGM2rGQzBJwDY1niv4d/S60jUMdJLw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:75d5:: with SMTP id q204mr441259ywc.418.1579546636757; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:57:16 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.246] (mobile-166-170-55-124.mycingular.net. [166.170.55.124]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id n142sm15792836ywd.26.2020.01.20.10.57.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:57:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel System Design for High wing Aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <326cf0b7-2c0b-1109-c23a-2a5d0ad82a20@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 12:57:15 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EB24C820E5CC8EA3446F2F5F" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200120-2, 01/20/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EB24C820E5CC8EA3446F2F5F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for that link; I've been sorely tempted to do it, but the hassle of removing an RV7 tank for service (*much* worse than a -6) finally made me give it up. If there was a convenient place for a 'header' tank in an RV, I'd still give it some thought. I'm sure that Steve already knows this, but a heads-up to anyone else thinking about doing this. The web page for this controller says 'just about any 12V pump will work'. NOT true. Several years ago, I spent some time on the phone with a Walbro engineer discussing the PWM control idea. He was very clear that the GSL series pumps that most of us have installed should not be used with PWM controllers. The reason he gave is that gerotor style pumps  (and I suspect this would also apply to roller-vane pumps) can have relatively short lives if PWM-controlled, because the PWM signal causes the gears to 'hammer' against each other. The proper style pump for PWM is a 'turbine' pump. The pump is basically a fan on the end of the motor shaft; works *kinda* like a water pump impeller. Which brings up another caution about the info on that web page. They show a turbine pump installed as an in-line pump; an application you will never find in a car. They are probably getting away with it in the bike because the bike's fuel tank is higher than the pump.  Turbine pumps are not 'positive displacement' pumps like the gerotor pumps; they cannot 'lift' fuel or self-prime. So installing them in-line in a low wing a/c could be very hazardous. Just thought the above was worth mentioning. Charlie On 1/20/2020 11:57 AM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote: > The following site lists an inexpensive fuel pump controller for use > on a returnless system. > > https://www.madhu.com/content/Main/FuelPumpController > > I have purchased one of these and am in the process of installing it > my rotary engine test stand for evaluation. > > Steve Boese > > On Jan 20, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > The holy grail is a returnless system, to finish out the automotive > style injection. :-) >> >> Ed did use a very small header tank; logic was that the recirculated >> fuel never stayed in the tank long enough to begin to heat up. But he >> didn't vent the header back to either main tank. I always thought >> that the unvented header was going to be the cause of his next >> 'glider' flight. If you add a vent line back to the main tank, it'll >> work safely. (My BD4 had a similar system, but for a different >> purpose; the BD main tanks had a tendency to unport in uncoordinated >> flight.) >> >> There are other options, too. We can talk. >> >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:58 AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net >> > > wrote: >> >> What is the best method for handling return fuel in a high wing? >> Fuel return to a small header tank sized to keep fuel >> temperatures low? I think Ed Anderson may have used a small >> header in his RV6. >> >> Asking for a friend with an airplane addiction. >> >> Bobby >> >> >> >> *Disclaimer* >> >> The information contained in this communication from the sender >> is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient >> and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this >> information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. >> >> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have >> been automatically archived by *Mimecast Ltd*, an innovator in >> Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a *safer* >> and *more useful* place for your human generated data. >> Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out >> more Click Here . >> --------------EB24C820E5CC8EA3446F2F5F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for that link; I've been sorely tempted to do it, but the hassle of removing an RV7 tank for service (*much* worse than a -6) finally made me give it up. If there was a convenient place for a 'header' tank in an RV, I'd still give it some thought.

I'm sure that Steve already knows this, but a heads-up to anyone else thinking about doing this. The web page for this controller says 'just about any 12V pump will work'. NOT true. Several years ago, I spent some time on the phone with a Walbro engineer discussing the PWM control idea. He was very clear that the GSL series pumps that most of us have installed should not be used with PWM controllers. The reason he gave is that gerotor style pumps  (and I suspect this would also apply to roller-vane pumps) can have relatively short lives if PWM-controlled, because the PWM signal causes the gears to 'hammer' against each other.

The proper style pump for PWM is a 'turbine' pump. The pump is basically a fan on the end of the motor shaft; works *kinda* like a water pump impeller. Which brings up another caution about the info on that web page. They show a turbine pump installed as an in-line pump; an application you will never find in a car. They are probably getting away with it in the bike because the bike's fuel tank is higher than the pump.  Turbine pumps are not 'positive displacement' pumps like the gerotor pumps; they cannot 'lift' fuel or self-prime. So installing them in-line in a low wing a/c could be very hazardous.

Just thought the above was worth mentioning.

Charlie

On 1/20/2020 11:57 AM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote:
The following site lists an inexpensive fuel pump controller for use on a returnless system.


I have purchased one of these and am in the process of installing it my rotary engine test stand for evaluation.

Steve Boese

On Jan 20, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

The holy grail is a returnless system, to finish out the automotive style injection. :-)

Ed did use a very small header tank; logic was that the recirculated fuel never stayed in the tank long enough to begin to heat up. But he didn't vent the header back to either main tank. I always thought that the unvented header was going to be the cause of his next 'glider' flight. If you add a vent line back to the main tank, it'll work safely. (My BD4 had a similar system, but for a different purpose; the BD main tanks had a tendency to unport in uncoordinated flight.)

There are other options, too. We can talk.

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:58 AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

What is the best method for handling return fuel in a high wing? Fuel return to a small header tank sized to keep fuel temperatures low? I think Ed Anderson may have used a small header in his RV6.

 

Asking for a friend with an airplane addiction.

 

Bobby



Disclaimer

The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more Click Here.


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