Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #65389
From: lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mufflers
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 11:39:57 +0000 (UTC)
To: <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sound measurements at the track a taken 50 feet from the track centerline on the side where guests will be sitting. The Mazda was so loud that we were the only cars required to have a muffler. At first we were limited to 105Db. The very next year we were down to 103Db. The scale is an exponential, so 103Db is much quieter than 105Db.   The big V8s didn't need mufflers until the spec was down to 103Db. 105Db can kill vegetation,
insects and small animals at 50 feet.  Distance is your friend. Longer tail pipe with the tip aimed down. Extended to the rear of passengers. Thick wall headers the reach outside the cowl. Perhaps mixing some air into the exhaust. Stuffing is useless. I tried ceramic wool. It gets hammered into dust and exit the area. Guys using the Mazda race muffler used Lava rocks to good effect. However they had to load a new dose every weekend. They also turned to dust. Our best combination was a Borla all stainless muffler and a tail pipe we could rotate to face away from the sound station. On a cool dry day we might have to lift a bit going past the sound station.  No I do not remember which part number we used. Sorry. It was big and heavy. A 747 would have trouble getting it off the ground.  A turbo in the system is worlds away in sound level.
Lynn E. Hanover


In a message dated 11/22/2019 1:43:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

I've considered buying a proper sound meter to make some more accurate measurements. And in the few moments since I started typing this response, I checked them out on Amazon and now whatyaknow, there's going to be one arriving at my door on saturday for a grand total of $23. "Add to cart", it's just too easy....
So yeah, I had no faith in the absolute readings and don't even have much faith in the relative reading showing a 6db increase. But even to my ears I didn't hear much difference.
 I'll use this new toy to take readings from a variety of places, including enlisting a little help from my friends that live under the flight paths.
  As far as elbows in the pipe, yes they certainly can create pressure drops etc. and is always taken into account in any pressure flows and while I would expect that as sound is just another form of energy, it would have some effect, but in our short limited pipe, is it measurable?
  I suppose that if by some miracle I found myself with nothing better to do, it would make a good experiment. There's a guy on YouTube (SmarterEveryDay) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6107grRI4m0o2-emgoDnAA
 that would probably love to do this experiment. Someone should suggest it to him. I can imagine him fabbing up an exhaust pipe with a few dozen removable bends then taking measurements while adding and removing them.
But as far as robbing HP, yes probably again, but it's of no concern to me as I already use a very conservative maximum 6psi of boost and only for short periods, to get me off the ground in a hurry. And I expect that in mountain flying I will be pretty happy to have it as well.

Todd Bartrim

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:28 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The elbows almost certainly help to 'mellow' the sound. I've submitted a couple of earlier posts about 'goodness' vs volume and the reasons rotaries sound so loud. But...
https://www.spikevm.com/calculators/irrigation/fittings-valves-calculator.php
How much power that saps is hard to predict, but it could be significant.

On the subject of using a cell phone for SPL measurements, you're right to be suspicious. At low volumes, relative measurements might be somewhat valid, but I wouldn't trust it to measure absolutes. At higher volumes, all bets are off. Based on  my experience in a previous life doing live sound work and 'tuning' rooms for fixed sound installations, I've never gotten believable numbers using any of my cell phone SPL apps.

Charlie


On 11/21/2019 4:08 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Neil and other Rotorheads;
  Sorry for the delayed reply, had a busy week with my kid in a hockey tournaments, as well as my own beer league. I love this season.....
I was using an AeroTurbine 2525 several feet downstream of my modified stock turbo until recently. It's a long story why and how, but I had this muffler inside a housing to keep it out of the air stream for aerodynamics and to keep it out of the cowl. Hard to describe and it was a half-baked idea, that I would not do again, but it was successful in that I had no visible muffler hanging below that aircraft and it was very quiet. I had strived to have a quiet aircraft and was quite satisfied with this aspect and many other pilots on the airport grounds had made very positive comments about how quiet it was when I would taxi past and also on take-off and climb out. I only ever had one cranky old guy say that it was loud, but it was clearly a case of it being different and not like a conventional aircraft noise, so to him it was obviously not good and must be loud. I think we can dismiss this one complaint.
Unfortunately I've not got any proper decibel measurements from a proper meter, but I did install a decibel meter app on my phone and took some measurements from inside the cockpit during a full power run while tied down just before I removed the muffler, for some before and after comparisons.
   Why did I remove it? Well again it's back to that darn half-baked muffler housing idea. The radiant heat from the muffler would radiate into the cockpit alongside my leg and despite having the muffler ceramic coated as well as firewall insulation on the housing it would get a little warm on hot summer days. That and I decided that it was time for my aircraft to go on a diet and start shedding some pounds, so I decided that it was time to see how bad it was without a muffler as I had never run it before without a muffler. Before the AeroTurbine I had a home made version of a SpinTech.
  Anyways the not-so-hard data that you're looking for.
With the muffler in place I saw a max of 83db, without it I saw a max of 89db. According to the app this is equivalent to an alarm clock?
Keep in mind that this from a cell phone app that I had just downloaded moments before the test and had made no attempt to calibrate it so really can only be used for before and after comparison.
So it was only a 6db increase in noise. It has always been possible to talk easily with the pax without the use of headsets during cruise flight. So with such a small increase in noise, I modified the exhaust pipe to come straight out of the rear of the cowl and went for a flight. One of my old cowboy buddies has a small ranch right under the departure end of one of the runways, so I notified him I was going for a flight and to go outside to take a listen and tell me how it sounds. I didn't tell him why, but he knows that I've always wanted to make sure I was quiet. So afterwards I stopped by for a beer and first thing he says is that it sounds quieter now. WTF? Since he's not very technical, I'm thinking again that it's just a different tone and he has interpreted it as being quieter.
   So I have a co-worker who lives under the downwind leg of the circuit and he is much more technical minded (he converted his own truck to electric about 10 years ago) so his opinion is probably more relevant. However since he's below the downwind leg, it's at a point where I have reduced power, so is already much quieter that when climbing over my other friends place. Anyways this guy has previously reported to me that he feels my plane is a little quieter than most, but mostly it is a different tone that is easy to tune out as he finds it less obnoxious than many of the GA planes that fly over. So I asked him a few weeks after I made the change if he'd seen me flying over recently and how did it sound? He said he hadn't noticed any difference, but wasn't paying attention to the sound anymore. So while that's not very scientific, it tells me that any increase in sound or change in tone hasn't been enough to make anyone take notice. So for all that reason, I think I'm going to make this a permanent weight loss.
   So clearly the stock turbo does provide some muffling. Another thing to note is that the thin wall 321SS pipe is about 30" long and has 5 elbows in it as it weaves it's way out. I'm not sure that would have much effect, but I imagine it's better than a straight pipe.
I see Dave has also responded and while I believe he has a stock turbine housing, the turbine and compressor wheel are not stock at all, so I don't know how much, but I suspect this would have some effect on sound.
  As far as the longevity of the AeroTurbine, It showed no signs of damage at after about 25 hours of flight and probably another 15 hours of ground running. That was before I sent it out to have it ceramic coated and I then put about another 10 hours on it (ground and flight) before I removed it. It shows no sign of damage or flaking of the ceramic coating. I'll probably use it on an old Jeep that my kid and I are rebuilding for him when he turns 16.
  Based on my experience, I would clearly chose to pack the useful weight of a turbo, than that of a muffler. Although that comes with it's own challenges as well.

Todd Bartrim

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:34 AM Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Not Tracy, but FWIW I have about 100 hrs on my 13B with an Aero Turbine 2525 muffler attached.  It is holding up well, is better than nothing but don't expect it to create a quiet exhaust; put it this way, I extended my exhaust pipe and Fish-tailed or whale-tailed if you like (with perforations) as it is compressed on the horizontal plane Vs the vertical to get further noise reduction.
Jeff

    IIRC, Tracy's been flying one on the 20B powered RV-8 for a number of years. That's what motivated me to purchase one, but it hasn't seen any exhaust gas yet.

    Charlie


  Charlie,,
      Any idea how many hours Tracy has on his AeroTurbine 2525.............?
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2

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