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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Update on Glasair Cooling in Phase #1
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-13141469@logan.com>
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Lynn, ON a different subject, turbos, So many to pick from but the
bullet proof ones add much weight. Do you have an recommendation in
turbos for just normalised of a little above that do not weigh too
much? Waste gate Yes / no, just what do you recommend? Neil.
On 11/5/2019 5:24 PM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
> When the cold fuel air mixture gets to the rotor face (much hotter
> than the oil temps) it expands violently.
> This slows, stops, or even reverses the incoming charge in the runner.
> The exact loss would depend on hundreds of items.
> Velocity in the runner would be a big one. But every different setup
> would need to be on a dyno to pin down the numbers. Richer mixture for
> take off and climb will help fuel cool the charge. Once at cruise lean
> of peak EGT will reduce temps (and power) and give best economy.
> Rotaries have poor torque at any RPM so try higher RPM for takeoff
> until no increase in performance is seen and then back off of that a
> bit. My best was 13,000 RPM. The driver stuck it into first instead of
> third on a downshift. Had to sand the irons a bit working on the
> tailgate of a pickup. Made the race the next day. If it is a sound
> well built engine even up to 8,000 RPM for takeoff would not hurt it.
> Our normal shift point was 9,600 RPM. Cruise speed would be controlled
> by the cost of fuel. The lightest bearing loads are at about 6,000 RPM.
> Make one change at a time. Make the first change big so you can see
> which direction the change is taking you. Then go back to the starting
> point and make a list of small changes in that direction. Compile data
> electronicly or make movies of the dash board.
>
> The Star Mazda people send engines back for rebuild every few weeks.
> They run thin oil scalding hot to reduce oil drag. They have plenty of
> fuel for fuel cooling. Note the sheets of fire out the exhaust. Not
> much to copy off of those people for airplanes. Daryl Drummond used to
> build every one of those engines.
> A monster ignition system and standard auto fuel. Ice cold spark
> plugs. Redline 40 or 50 weight at 100 PSI or as close as you can get.
>
> Just my opinions. I could be completely wrong......Lynn E. Hanover
>
> You are flying a dyno. So a week of testing would give you a chart for
> best power/mixture for each situation.
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2019 6:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
>
> Hi Bobby
> Thanks, I had the same thought yesterday. Introduced a further 15
> in2 of airflow to cowl.
> I must get on and instrument the cowl for pressures.
>
> Thanks Lynn.
> What kind of power difference might we see between say oil of 180F
> and 200F
> Does oil temp also effects fuel economy?
> I need to do further testing at higher airs speeds and trying to
> understand the tradeoffs between approx power/eccon cost if we
> were to only get down to 200F.
> I had a Starmazda paper that stated that they target 200F.
>
> Also any feedback on how to fly the engine would be appreciated by
> my test pilot friend who is doing the testing.
> He is trying to get a handle on what rpm, map, prop pitch settings
> to use for the various flight regimes.
> The prop is elect variable but not auto/constant speed.
>
> For take off we are just winding in pitch (a human governor) to
> keep RPM at ~7300 and 120KIAS climb.
> Now I’m guessing that we’ll eventually experiment with best
> rpm/blade pitch/map that gives best efficiency, but before then
> can you guys provide any wisdom?
>
> What RPM might you target after initial climb?
>
> As always, really appreciate the feedback.
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> > On 5 Nov 2019, at 3:21 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com
> <mailto:lehanover@aol.com> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>> wrote:
> >
> > The oil temp tracks the power output. Hotter rotor means hotter
> oil. Not a solid connection to water temps but some. Oil temps
> above 160 degrees cost power.
> > Lynn E. Hanover
> >
> > In a message dated 11/4/2019 9:28:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> flyrotary@lancaironline.net <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> writes:
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > If all your exchangers dump into the cowl then the increased
> flow / pressure through the coolant exchangers may be limiting air
> flow through the oil cooler.
> >
> > Bobby
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft
> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2019 3:42 PM
> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update on Glasair Cooling in Phase #1
> >
> > Sorry Matt, I just realised I hadn’t mentioned the actual oil temps.
> > Highest in climb were 114C (237F) settling back to 110C this is
> 10C higher than previous flight?? OAT was up 4C ~7F
> > I would have expected a symbiotic relationship between oil and
> water temps. Lower coolant yielding lower oil temps.
> > This is troubling me, Prior to this flight I noticed oil level
> down on the stick. Its always been very consistently full with no
> signs of leaks etc. (Standard Renesis pan)
> > It’s running Mobile 1 and measuring the oil entering the engine
> after cooler and filter.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > > On 3 Nov 2019, at 11:35 pm, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com
> <mailto:mattboiteau@gmail.com> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Coolant looks great. Are you running a t-stat?
> > > What are the oil temps when you say "high"? Synthetic? Weight?
> Oil pan or inlet temp location?
> > >
> > > This is my opinion, with synthetic 20W50 at oil pain temps,
> I'd be okay during the climb with 240F and hopefully after some
> air speed it drops down under 220F.
> > >
> > > I do agree you might have to open up to 100mm (4 inch) for oil
> cooler.
> > >
> > > - Matt Boiteau
> > >> On 2019-11-03 8:31:47 AM, Stephen Izett
> stephen.izett@gmail.com <mailto:stephen.izett@gmail.com>
> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi there people
> > >>
> > >> Over the past month I have updated the cooling system of the
> Glasair Super II RG in order to continue our phase 1 testing.
> > >>
> > >> The previous setup had 540in3 two pass behind the ~20in2
> unmodified right cheek inlet.
> > >> We hadn’t included the left cheek as it was so difficult to
> get the air across to the right hand side diffuser.
> > >> The Oil is 250in3 behind a 8in2 under spinner inlet.
> > >> Initial testing was marginal with OAT below 20C (68F)
> > >> So having established that cooling was rather marginal above
> 68F I went for the planned upgrade path which included
> > >> installing a secondary bike radiator of 130in3 plumbed into
> the heater circuit behind the ~15in2 left cheek inlet.
> > >> The diffuser was designed to hopefully be more efficient in a
> climb configuration.
> > >> So the total radiators frontal area has been increased by 50%
> while the air in has increased 75%.
> > >> The unknown is that being in the heater circuit we don't know
> the total flow through the secondary rad compared with the primary
> rad.
> > >>
> > >> Testing on the ground yield an approx 15-20C drop in coolant
> after 30mins of 1800rpm idle.
> > >>
> > >> Flight Testing Results the next day: OAT 21C (70F)
> > >> Coolant Temps max’d on climb at 93C (200F) down 15C on
> highest Flight 3 climb temp with a 4C higher OAT.
> > >> Coolant Temps dropped to 83C (181F) as speed got to 147 KIAS
> (Cruise is published as 192 KIAS but we haven’t expanded the
> envelope to date)
> > >> I’m very pleased with this result.
> > >>
> > >> Oil Temps are high. I would much prefer them below 80C (176F)
> > >> I’ll be interested to see what oil temp does as speed rises,
> but my hunch is it needs more air (increase air to oil cooler from
> a diameter of 77mm to 100mm)
> > >>
> > >> Slow Speed Tests:
> > >> Vs Clean Stall is at 67 KIAS row 2011 (Glasair claims 70
> Knots at Gross)
> > >> Vso Full Flap Stall is at 57 KIAS row 2062 & 2083 (Glasair
> claims 59 Knots at Gross)
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>
> > >> Steve Izett
> > >> Perth Western Australia
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > >> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
> >
> > --
> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
> > --
> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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<p>Lynn, ON a different subject, turbos, So many to pick from but
the bullet proof ones add much weight. Do you have an
recommendation in turbos for just normalised of a little above
that do not weigh too much? Waste gate Yes / no, just what do
you recommend? Neil.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/5/2019 5:24 PM, lehanover
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lehanover@aol.com">lehanover@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:list-13141469@logan.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>
<div class="userEdit" style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">When the cold fuel air
mixture gets to the rotor face (much hotter than the oil
temps) it expands violently.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">This slows, stops, or
even reverses the incoming charge in the runner. The exact
loss would depend on hundreds of items.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">Velocity in the runner
would be a big one. But every different setup would need
to be on a dyno to pin down the numbers. Richer mixture
for take off and climb will help fuel cool the charge.
Once at cruise lean of peak EGT will reduce temps (and
power) and give best economy. Rotaries have poor torque at
any RPM so try higher RPM for takeoff until no increase in
performance is seen and then back off of that a bit. My
best was 13,000 RPM. The driver stuck it into first
instead of third on a downshift. Had to sand the irons a
bit working on the tailgate of a pickup. Made the race the
next day. If it is a sound well built engine even up to
8,000 RPM for takeoff would not hurt it. Our normal shift
point was 9,600 RPM. Cruise speed would be controlled by
the cost of fuel. The lightest bearing loads are at about
6,000 RPM.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">Make one change at a
time. Make the first change big so you can see which
direction the change is taking you. Then go back to the
starting point and make a list of small changes in that
direction. Compile data electronicly or make movies of
the dash board.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">The Star Mazda people
send engines back for rebuild every few weeks. They run
thin oil scalding hot to reduce oil drag. They have plenty
of fuel for fuel cooling. Note the sheets of fire out the
exhaust. Not much to copy off of those people for
airplanes. Daryl Drummond used to build every one of those
engines.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">A monster ignition
system and standard auto fuel. Ice cold spark plugs.
Redline 40 or 50 weight at 100 PSI or as close as you can
get.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">Just my opinions. I
could be completely wrong......Lynn E. Hanover<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">You are flying a dyno.
So a week of testing would give you a chart for best
power/mixture for each situation.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
In a message dated 11/4/2019 6:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a> writes:
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="quotedReply">
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;
border-left: blue 2px solid;">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Bobby</div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks, I had the same thought yesterday.
Introduced a further 15 in2 of airflow to cowl.</div>
<div dir="ltr">I must get on and instrument the cowl for
pressures.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks Lynn.</div>
<div dir="ltr">What kind of power difference might we see
between say oil of 180F and 200F</div>
<div dir="ltr">Does oil temp also effects fuel economy?</div>
<div dir="ltr">I need to do further testing at higher airs
speeds and trying to understand the tradeoffs between
approx power/eccon cost if we were to only get down to
200F.</div>
<div dir="ltr">I had a Starmazda paper that stated that they
target 200F.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Also any feedback on how to fly the engine
would be appreciated by my test pilot friend who is doing
the testing.</div>
<div dir="ltr">He is trying to get a handle on what rpm,
map, prop pitch settings to use for the various flight
regimes.</div>
<div dir="ltr">The prop is elect variable but not
auto/constant speed.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">For take off we are just winding in pitch (a
human governor) to keep RPM at ~7300 and 120KIAS climb.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Now I’m guessing that we’ll eventually
experiment with best rpm/blade pitch/map that gives best
efficiency, but before then can you guys provide any
wisdom?</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">What RPM might you target after initial
climb?</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">As always, really appreciate the feedback.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Cheers</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Steve Izett</div>
<div dir="ltr">> On 5 Nov 2019, at 3:21 am, lehanover <a
href="mailto:lehanover@aol.com" rel="noopener
noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">lehanover@aol.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> The oil temp tracks the power output.
Hotter rotor means hotter oil. Not a solid connection to
water temps but some. Oil temps above 160 degrees cost
power.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> Lynn E. Hanover</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> In a message dated 11/4/2019 9:28:29 AM
Eastern Standard Time, <a
href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" rel="noopener
noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>
writes:</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> Steve,</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> If all your exchangers dump into the
cowl then the increased flow / pressure through the
coolant exchangers may be limiting air flow through the
oil cooler.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> Bobby</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> -----Original Message-----</div>
<div dir="ltr">> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:<a
href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" rel="noopener
noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>]</div>
<div dir="ltr">> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2019 3:42 PM</div>
<div dir="ltr">> To: Rotary motors in aircraft</div>
<div dir="ltr">> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update on
Glasair Cooling in Phase #1</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> Sorry Matt, I just realised I hadn’t
mentioned the actual oil temps.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> Highest in climb were 114C (237F)
settling back to 110C this is 10C higher than previous
flight?? OAT was up 4C ~7F</div>
<div dir="ltr">> I would have expected a symbiotic
relationship between oil and water temps. Lower coolant
yielding lower oil temps.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> This is troubling me, Prior to this
flight I noticed oil level down on the stick. Its always
been very consistently full with no signs of leaks etc.
(Standard Renesis pan)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> It’s running Mobile 1 and measuring the
oil entering the engine after cooler and filter.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> Steve</div>
<div dir="ltr">> </div>
<div dir="ltr">> > On 3 Nov 2019, at 11:35 pm, Matt
Boiteau <a href="mailto:mattboiteau@gmail.com"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">mattboiteau@gmail.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div dir="ltr">> ></div>
<div dir="ltr">> > Coolant looks great. Are you
running a t-stat?</div>
<div dir="ltr">> > What are the oil temps when you say
"high"? Synthetic? Weight? Oil pan or inlet temp location?</div>
<div dir="ltr">> ></div>
<div dir="ltr">> > This is my opinion, with synthetic
20W50 at oil pain temps, I'd be okay during the climb with
240F and hopefully after some air speed it drops down
under 220F.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> ></div>
<div dir="ltr">> > I do agree you might have to open
up to 100mm (4 inch) for oil cooler.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> ></div>
<div dir="ltr">> > - Matt Boiteau</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> On 2019-11-03 8:31:47 AM,
Stephen Izett <a href="mailto:stephen.izett@gmail.com"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">stephen.izett@gmail.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Hi there people</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Over the past month I have
updated the cooling system of the Glasair Super II RG in
order to continue our phase 1 testing.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> The previous setup had 540in3
two pass behind the ~20in2 unmodified right cheek inlet.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> We hadn’t included the left
cheek as it was so difficult to get the air across to the
right hand side diffuser.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> The Oil is 250in3 behind a 8in2
under spinner inlet.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Initial testing was marginal
with OAT below 20C (68F)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> So having established that
cooling was rather marginal above 68F I went for the
planned upgrade path which included</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> installing a secondary bike
radiator of 130in3 plumbed into the heater circuit behind
the ~15in2 left cheek inlet.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> The diffuser was designed to
hopefully be more efficient in a climb configuration.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> So the total radiators frontal
area has been increased by 50% while the air in has
increased 75%.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> The unknown is that being in
the heater circuit we don't know the total flow through
the secondary rad compared with the primary rad.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Testing on the ground yield an
approx 15-20C drop in coolant after 30mins of 1800rpm
idle.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Flight Testing Results the next
day: OAT 21C (70F)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Coolant Temps max’d on climb at
93C (200F) down 15C on highest Flight 3 climb temp with a
4C higher OAT.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Coolant Temps dropped to 83C
(181F) as speed got to 147 KIAS (Cruise is published as
192 KIAS but we haven’t expanded the envelope to date)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> I’m very pleased with this
result.</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Oil Temps are high. I would
much prefer them below 80C (176F)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> I’ll be interested to see what
oil temp does as speed rises, but my hunch is it needs
more air (increase air to oil cooler from a diameter of
77mm to 100mm)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Slow Speed Tests:</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Vs Clean Stall is at 67 KIAS
row 2011 (Glasair claims 70 Knots at Gross)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Vso Full Flap Stall is at 57
KIAS row 2062 & 2083 (Glasair claims 59 Knots at
Gross)</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Cheers</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Steve Izett</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Perth Western Australia</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> --</div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Homepage: <a
href="http://www.flyrotary.com/" target="_blank"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.flyrotary.com/</a></div>
<div dir="ltr">> >> Archive and UnSub: <a
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<div dir="ltr">> </div>
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<div dir="ltr">> --</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><br>
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</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">--
Homepage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.flyrotary.com/">http://www.flyrotary.com/</a>
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