X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PNVxBsiC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=z9h4IXdmUi/YXTd3F3WVTA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=0o9FgrsRnhwA:10 a=J4CmDkmY71QA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=lKPQtorlAAAA:8 a=MMMxZlE7AAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=s1I-Y6CqAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Z3IzeBEpZoIhHdf5dz0A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=TbTuEfNj71wA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=7RjvktDPlVOKFHkhauIA:9 a=Nge9bOSeAPTzUKux:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=opVyWQfbEivB9Nt9EY2k:22 a=c1TPop_4XmU7Vuhlasjn:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=1z8CZO-gz1oi-LRGHyP3:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic314-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.13) with ESMTPS id 12746545 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:52:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.132.123; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1562683951; bh=R0DS9T/Igwyqjwzk3MmxFa6Ls1mE+DXpr+BLHQSg+mI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=ryJHG2V8Z0vz2ZCEjIWd+2JGGR7iY31KEXBVqlNOdlRr2Vk19ROUHMXIaqb7p5hYx9Y88V4F6kbcsuVyaeE98P0bEQVjxKhi1/RxKIQLztiHyPPLsl+hI4gg6nFSmxqFKy/i8luBua/yP9cCVhwYBmaySzyebyY3RXiMTR3f/NCBu+nyhluiWVYmkxYzM4SNGGVGNhXQdRlwR5xeuTnfEjdg6XRzVqnoAtXVaLwCxkjYgLf3npLzXwqEzI4u9GvdDS+o4BB7OcA5h/jIq6bQBeuJVxz/p99pR+spZDEc096u0NuWJgh+wTT3HcpGokYyEh+H6mfrqdA71wfDreJIYQ== X-YMail-OSG: QYWBh4wVM1nqMicf9VAQ09_RLuizyHNikom0p.h2sTj88fp1Vg9U_gy9lei_AgP eetLq3E8NBTe1.u.mfCfCkraM9riCtEhKM.VMqHnGdWbTqylZJ0SdUIuC6BaGvdUED3n4LFqiB1D SKXbX2QmsCTkA076koQZURHl9zbV_GQwGK2vQ_SnbA0HPVWUxbqyId8AUNCpuSlebzsX_DPvzdon H5c0trFR7QYN9TjCxGaR9wrupa9YjaW9SXsiqQ.ql0JRBiAa07_piInIgDGdokLmdwFzrvPRk2MY jAEHWDVoIppVL_3YtKjRZ7mCcQANva8gMNaxKKZ_UN5KxqUmPZ626xW1oQ9MG6pjpzmA8kuWllr7 zOP39qM6lwVSHOKT_MevXrcl.Me6urck1_n3pNxjqL.YCzi7_ZXv72V1mkTyo79qReuZX5APvE6u GUc2OR6hmHN55caj8ijmtsd8fiSuXp1q5NUm4YI3kiRfumcprt4C9SdofuoxRQkASrpBYBbkwFNW S8U8TW7IwTC3Wdoo309M.d9XuHymD.P.Q.ln6kNVDAcceA5yBSQDLDQsRQwebb0n88e6NyJTVDi6 R5hfWS8CAm.qEL8wXUx89hnnzaNYSGlalMDCc791KXZDKMoaUS0EsJ2JV_BqiOIPWj7i7cnMLjHk qTcrz3FRBk1NEy_aoWVnwGkRbmivbV6faM7pIym14bPVbsqUdTBZgvVBhWvK6BrjJgz4yDZx2Mn4 kQD8u4W.l2T.K6melMJhiAEFOOvI8ojitvuz6BizV59PNy4QyP7a_BalvH6eCdNb5cDNaG0xm.Zr RhGTMw4XhUgOiAgQFZzmLa_LxXqAlGvVSrcyU.5wzbTrkygwjIQvoN5Wz2ADF9vNmFhStYl_Dap1 StCj_zEz2TsSekQF_BOKr_HKly.SBi2TDOHE76_wOoHYxuE6fchi554xeMeuBnf66NNQkOUlunQS exLFnIgw5WDTAa0CY31tMnE.r6ZKjpuc2vcyQHU_Cd.6Eo36.SQFtfz.TKjNsgSGHKZfq0pJEX1Q vD_36WpmQckvOt65diOGXPmUN9Vk_pkZ2mvpKUzD7tx766tz4uaSDpQRM5TCTp.smAKV7hC_VU0H Q2kwW_ArVDRFcACoGCuboHUd4V.kGyLKjQE3Et9GnoyU.OIlbWR1iJVKSzjr7aXFE8yylW9Zd4jD MvJzuUJ5fS9i13C9CJH9_xQlCZSnI4ZEBj.loLGw5GKxGffZ69Y0ILUZ2aTWrgFhXzXJF8udw3Q- - Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:52:31 +0000 Received: by smtp406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e3d2aa6eeb7857d8eca88d6cc0aa0e32; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: timing on renesis engines To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <0ed7ce68-e8fd-fbff-4b42-c458385267c6@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:52:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------32FE528A3AE79AFBDD967B8C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32FE528A3AE79AFBDD967B8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Disregard. Those drivers are most likely for the injectors. Don't have the EC3 schematic so no clue what drives the coils. Finn On 7/9/2019 10:35 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > All EC3 drivers are IRL530NS power MOSFETs with a on-resistance of 0.1 > ohms. > > So the voltage the coils see will pretty much be whatever your 12 volt > bus is -- whatever the alternator outputs. > > Haven't looked at the program code but suspect that coil sees full > voltage during the dwell time -- simple on/off. > > Finn > > On 7/8/2019 9:24 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >> Depends what voltage it's??nominal at. >> Look at the Miata link, it shows actual GM dwell settings from their >> ECU. >> >> You'll see RPM vs voltage for the dwell settings. I don't know how >> Tracy's computer handles the dwell. >> >> - Matt Boiteau >>> >>> On 2019-07-08 7:17:34 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> So which MS document do we take as being the good oil for the LS2 >>> coils. Is it 4.0mS or 3.5mS ? >>> >>> Steve Izett >>> >>> > On 9 Jul 2019, at 6:04 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>> > >>> > That's an outdated page. I'm not sure why they even keep them alive. >>> > http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS3baseV30_Hardware-1.4.pdf >>> > Page 93 >>> > >>> > Of course that number depends what voltage is consider at >>> "nominal". Not sure if Tracy's changes value based on voltage or >>> not. And RPM vs Manifold pressure >>> > >>> > >>> https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/lsx-coil-thread-82744/page8/#post1380088 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > - Matt Boiteau >>> >> On 2019-07-08 11:58:11 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Matt, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> How did you end up with 3.5ms for the D585???s? At least one >>> Megasquirt resource shows 4.0ms at 14VDC. My concern is the wide >>> range between Tracy???s LS1 4.3ms and the 3.5ms referenced. If the >>> megasqiurt information is correct then Tracy was very conservative >>> with the LS1 settings. 4.0ms vs 5.6ms. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Bobby >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>> >> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 8:03 PM >>> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: timing on renesis engines >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> For the LS2 - D585 truck coils, 3.5ms is the recommended dwell. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> - Matt Boiteau >>> >> >>> >> On 2019-07-05 7:37:10 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Thanks Bobby and Lyn. >>> >> >>> >> According to Tracy???s code - 2.6 mSec RX8, 3.5 mSec RX7, 4.0 >>> mSec LS2, 4.3 mSec LS1. >>> >> I also wondered about the timing difference between the various >>> coils trigger circuit actually firing. >>> >> Now I suppose that difference might be a few uSec and >>> insignificant, but if its 100uSec >>> >> then the timing difference between various coil types might >>> become significant. >>> >> >>> >> @ 7000 RPM >>> >> 1 rev takes 8.6mSec >>> >> So each degree of EShaft rotation is 24uSec. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks again for the help. >>> >> >>> >> Steve >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > On 6 Jul 2019, at 2:52 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > Lynn, >>> >> > >>> >> > Default is what ever Tracy set it to. The CAS location is not >>> adjustable so default is set in his code. >>> >> > >>> >> > Bobby >>> >> > >>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >>> >> > >>> >> > On Jul 5, 2019, at 12:43 PM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> >> What is the "Default" advance? Is that checked with a timing >>> light? Easy starting can be up to 15 degrees of advance. For full >>> power use up to 27 degrees of advance is good up to 10,500 RPM. >>> Boosted engines require less advance as boost increases. Because the >>> effective compression ratio as well as charge temperature is going >>> up. Very high boost my have advance closer to zero. Advance is used >>> to allow full combustion >>> >> >> of the charge before the exhaust port opens. At higher >>> pressure and temps the flame front speeds are increasing. So, less >>> time is needed. Thus less advance is needed. Lowering intake air >>> temps with an inter-cooler and adding water spray can allow higher >>> boost. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Boosting to maintain sea level performance would probably not >>> shorten engine life. Boosting for additional performance does >>> shorten engine life. The kids get over 600 HP with boosted drag >>> racing engines. This is fine if you only need the engine for 9 >>> seconds. You have to know what the actual advance is to make any >>> decision. Mark the flex plate or flywheel teeth with paint so you >>> can check actual advance during any RPM. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> It is difficult to detonate an NA engine. It is not difficult >>> detonate a boosted engine. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Lynn E. Hanover >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> In a message dated 7/5/2019 10:22:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Steve, >>> >> >> I???m running default timing or maybe 1 degree advanced. Early >>> on I experimented with 1-2 degrees advance for many flight hours and >>> did not detect any noticeable change in engine performance. I did >>> push the engine to what I believe was detonation during a ground >>> tuning session. I was tuning under boost (44??? MP) , 7000 rpm with >>> a wideband O2 on each runner and adjusting Mode 9 and Mode 4. With >>> F/A balanced between each rotor and EGT???s under 1600F I was trying >>> to see if increasing timing would lower EGT???s. F/A was in the >>> 11???s. This was at the end of the session and the engine and >>> supercharger were already hot. I think I had added 4-5 degrees >>> advance with no noticeable EGT decrease when I encountered a mild >>> bang or misfire. This condition was well above my 38??? MP limit I >>> sometimes use for takeoff. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I???m curious about the dwell time setting difference between >>> LS1 and LS2 coils. I switched to LS2 coils sometime back with no >>> failures to date. I remember seeing an option setting in some of the >>> code you or Finn posted. Internet research indicates LS2 coils >>> require less dwell time than LS1. Possibly 0.5-1 ms less. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Bobby >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Sent from my iPad >>> >> >> >>> >> >> > On Jul 5, 2019, at 12:58 AM, Stephen Izett >>> stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Hi there Guys >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Of the guys with Renesis engines using EC2/3 can you comment >>> on your timing settings. >>> >> >> > I???ve to date left the timing at the default setting >>> figuring its set by the location of the CAS. >>> >> >> > Not sure if the various coil options have different trigger >>> timing latency. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Thanks >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Steve Izett >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > -- >>> >> >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >> >> > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> >>> >> >> -- >>> >> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >> >> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > --------------32FE528A3AE79AFBDD967B8C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Disregard. Those drivers are most likely for the injectors. Don't have the EC3 schematic so no clue what drives the coils.

Finn

On 7/9/2019 10:35 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
All EC3 drivers are IRL530NS power MOSFETs with a on-resistance of 0.1 ohms.

So the voltage the coils see will pretty much be whatever your 12 volt bus is -- whatever the alternator outputs.

Haven't looked at the program code but suspect that coil sees full voltage during the dwell time -- simple on/off.

Finn

On 7/8/2019 9:24 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
Depends what voltage it's??nominal at.
Look at the Miata link, it shows actual GM dwell settings from their ECU.

You'll see RPM vs voltage for the dwell settings. I don't know how Tracy's computer handles the dwell.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-07-08 7:17:34 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

So which MS document do we take as being the good oil for the LS2 coils. Is it 4.0mS or 3.5mS ?

Steve Izett

> On 9 Jul 2019, at 6:04 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
>
> That's an outdated page. I'm not sure why they even keep them alive.
> http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS3baseV30_Hardware-1.4.pdf
> Page 93
>
> Of course that number depends what voltage is consider at "nominal". Not sure if Tracy's changes value based on voltage or not. And RPM vs Manifold pressure
>
> https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/lsx-coil-thread-82744/page8/#post1380088
>
>
>
> - Matt Boiteau
>> On 2019-07-08 11:58:11 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>>
>>
>> How did you end up with 3.5ms for the D585???s? At least one Megasquirt resource shows 4.0ms at 14VDC. My concern is the wide range between Tracy???s LS1 4.3ms and the 3.5ms referenced. If the megasqiurt information is correct then Tracy was very conservative with the LS1 settings. 4.0ms vs 5.6ms.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobby
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
>> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 8:03 PM
>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: timing on renesis engines
>>
>>
>>
>> For the LS2 - D585 truck coils, 3.5ms is the recommended dwell.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Matt Boiteau
>>
>> On 2019-07-05 7:37:10 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bobby and Lyn.
>>
>> According to Tracy???s code - 2.6 mSec RX8, 3.5 mSec RX7, 4.0 mSec LS2, 4.3 mSec LS1.
>> I also wondered about the timing difference between the various coils trigger circuit actually firing.
>> Now I suppose that difference might be a few uSec and insignificant, but if its 100uSec
>> then the timing difference between various coil types might become significant.
>>
>> @ 7000 RPM
>> 1 rev takes 8.6mSec
>> So each degree of EShaft rotation is 24uSec.
>>
>> Thanks again for the help.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 6 Jul 2019, at 2:52 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:
>> >
>> > Lynn,
>> >
>> > Default is what ever Tracy set it to. The CAS location is not adjustable so default is set in his code.
>> >
>> > Bobby
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > On Jul 5, 2019, at 12:43 PM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> What is the "Default" advance? Is that checked with a timing light? Easy starting can be up to 15 degrees of advance. For full power use up to 27 degrees of advance is good up to 10,500 RPM. Boosted engines require less advance as boost increases. Because the effective compression ratio as well as charge temperature is going up. Very high boost my have advance closer to zero. Advance is used to allow full combustion
>> >> of the charge before the exhaust port opens. At higher pressure and temps the flame front speeds are increasing. So, less time is needed. Thus less advance is needed. Lowering intake air temps with an inter-cooler and adding water spray can allow higher boost.
>> >>
>> >> Boosting to maintain sea level performance would probably not shorten engine life. Boosting for additional performance does shorten engine life. The kids get over 600 HP with boosted drag racing engines. This is fine if you only need the engine for 9 seconds. You have to know what the actual advance is to make any decision. Mark the flex plate or flywheel teeth with paint so you can check actual advance during any RPM.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It is difficult to detonate an NA engine. It is not difficult detonate a boosted engine.
>> >>
>> >> Lynn E. Hanover
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In a message dated 7/5/2019 10:22:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
>> >>
>> >> Steve,
>> >> I???m running default timing or maybe 1 degree advanced. Early on I experimented with 1-2 degrees advance for many flight hours and did not detect any noticeable change in engine performance. I did push the engine to what I believe was detonation during a ground tuning session. I was tuning under boost (44??? MP) , 7000 rpm with a wideband O2 on each runner and adjusting Mode 9 and Mode 4. With F/A balanced between each rotor and EGT???s under 1600F I was trying to see if increasing timing would lower EGT???s. F/A was in the 11???s. This was at the end of the session and the engine and supercharger were already hot. I think I had added 4-5 degrees advance with no noticeable EGT decrease when I encountered a mild bang or misfire. This condition was well above my 38??? MP limit I sometimes use for takeoff.
>> >>
>> >> I???m curious about the dwell time setting difference between LS1 and LS2 coils. I switched to LS2 coils sometime back with no failures to date. I remember seeing an option setting in some of the code you or Finn posted. Internet research indicates LS2 coils require less dwell time than LS1. Possibly 0.5-1 ms less.
>> >>
>> >> Bobby
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPad
>> >>
>> >> > On Jul 5, 2019, at 12:58 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi there Guys
>> >> >
>> >> > Of the guys with Renesis engines using EC2/3 can you comment on your timing settings.
>> >> > I???ve to date left the timing at the default setting figuring its set by the location of the CAS.
>> >> > Not sure if the various coil options have different trigger timing latency.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Izett
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> >> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>


--
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



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