X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Np+vjPVJ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=rCc/Pk3oV6av6DuqWjX5/w==:117 a=u3CGP+4WvqPffeJqwjXaNQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=qBFUcJ2_AAAA:8 a=U6X_2EJcAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=VCTSCsJ_Aeb9y4CK5H8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=LKehEgn9J7AA:10 a=DafdoAFNBw4A:10 a=gA6IeH5FQcgA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=QoLDwnfiZtvhFyMuqMUA:9 a=NwTm20LXMb94PQx8:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=B_RyunTPg8udlmYm5Cu2:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=cp47PM4wlqr5L9-lCGO5:22 a=nV98HLy25BINaCVz_2IH:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-yw1-f47.google.com ([209.85.161.47] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12601913 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 May 2019 15:57:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.47; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-yw1-f47.google.com with SMTP id k70so2765941ywe.7 for ; Mon, 27 May 2019 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=YFF0hxGDpYn182RXpb3o+9ef8Nxr94aREZ7rl66BUD0=; b=FZ82i79+VsmSM39PSBAZ6yxoREGSyQ1QC3QurfGkLC0bYw6xTj6ziMfgFfLcYVYHux nCaUWiy/PiKAfvUpE7den1Pre1KHqbYjaP0rXr5ejXJclgW/tH9q5ciF5V1AYgEFDKPZ QPDD3Eaw984+q/jnzE2518gSJRen7zSu4FeFQqoEMkVpdGsruLanHgzeF8EC+XrodkIw Y0bbpYS9GTe++aB9Pbe9UbRwhcV6rWLQy2CHHr+hagpOgHklNxHjFnK4Qt//ryfbvNK0 BGPumnGu5shtXKhIjJv0OZNPuRSxpaT638sYIeyMm5cDh5oCVAHTLpqNMjvvSrxM+zBP pqdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=YFF0hxGDpYn182RXpb3o+9ef8Nxr94aREZ7rl66BUD0=; b=sf09hbeBfVZ/VZ98OM1MyhL5PMipQ45hx35/3xBc8ulSNvaetlbgcSTdnjjZ3xRLsr cPqzsSsI2tdIrG+aVG9IhDjYvVyTOSxq7ChnFlfwhetPWjuIgeS4Wkv+brL5v0Qjj8UZ wJ04UOajd26HTSeuZA9aMo4OB8MUmXgcXQa8nHgfzR+GjjzGIbllsMLRKBlCXK9I2yHf MAhKy1GV48avjOZOyaJCCcUR0N4ZrjQUN/Blxs31qAz8tRDfR2XAj52XAoYv8gl2Lnfk gWD53bE+isxkeK/9bfl5fiZi9Mpls3Wv2b9Lr+WkfXDUcXzEFMIzy5q+FkZ9JiXrsjJM duHg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVusqawVaSsOXqbYEcGs60iLE1hIjhdFeT9ZnWhawgIuYnUrbDV 5EcpGKI/ur94kRqfgttJEw2e3Azo X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwhSU3TquY10di7U9PD5qouobIUQZr3h4p4k3Bb79gteeX9DYVYubfjV95LyGq3kitZWkx6Bw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:3cc6:: with SMTP id j189mr20801701ywa.442.1558987024162; Mon, 27 May 2019 12:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.217] (mobile-166-170-56-98.mycingular.net. [166.170.56.98]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p21sm3182344ywp.73.2019.05.27.12.57.01 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 May 2019 12:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to make a program change to my EC3? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <1b0ec634-37ea-a682-654b-d48c1460610a@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:57:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5982ED4720A24028F09E7D0E" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 190527-4, 05/27/2019), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5982ED4720A24028F09E7D0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Sam, I'm assuming you have a dual controller. Do you have a programming mode 8 on the piston version of the controller? The rotary controllers can use mode 8 to adjust ignition timing +/- 10 degrees. Once you've verified that static timing is where it needs to be for the controller to work correctly in cruise, and determine that you have too much advance for starting, you could consider retarding your B controller timing by the max of 10 degrees and always start on B. That might get your start timing late enough to avoid kickback. Charlie On 5/26/2019 7:00 PM, Sam Hoskins sam.hoskins@gmail.com wrote: > >  What are you using for your 2nd ignition? How do you start the > plane; both on, or if only one, which one? > > > I am using the EC3 for the upper and lower sets of plugs, per the > installation instructions. I have LS1 coils for the upper and > Motocraft for the lower plugs. The coils for each cylinder are tied > together so they both fire from the same impulse from the ECU. > Everything is on during starting. > > So 35 deg would be the maximum advance ever, but operating > parameters retard it back to around 23-25 deg BTDC for normal > engine operation. > >  I don't know if that is true or not. I believe the timing is set via > an internal map that the user cannot adjust and changes due to RPM and > MAP. I do not have an EM2 to monitor spark advance. I like the idea of > cranking the engine while using an automotive timing light to > determine how much advance is present during start. Right now I'm > waiting for my started & alternator from B&C so it may be a while > before I can do this test. > > On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 12:46 PM eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > wrote: > > Hi Sam, > > If memory serves me right, computer control ignitions generally > have their static timing set to the maximum advance expected.  > Then based on engine operating parmaters such as rpm and manifold > pressure the ignition timing is retarded from that maximum advance > point.  So 35 deg would be the maximum advance ever, but operating > parameters retard it back to around 23-25 deg BTDC for normal > engine operation. > > Ed > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Sam Hoskins sam.hoskins@gmail.com > " > > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > Sent: 5/26/2019 11:12:37 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to make a program change to my EC3? > >> I was looking through my blog, written 10 years ago, when I was >> first setting the system up. I do not have an  em2 monitor. I use >> an automotive timing light on my ignition settings. I see that at >> wide open throttle I have a 25 degree advance, but at idle it >> advances to about 35 degrees. So if the EC3 is starting with that >> much advance, it's no wonder I'm getting kick back. However, I >> don't know if there is any sort of a ignition advance built into >> the EC3 that I don't know about. >> >> This kickback is a relatively new situation. For the first eight >> years or so I still had one magneto. I recently switched over to >> all electronic ignition, and that's when this started. >> >> On Sun, May 26, 2019, 9:52 AM eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> > > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Sam, >> >> Bill makes an excellent suggestion.  When setting up your >> static timing pointer to your pulley, if you move the spot >> for TDC on the pulley so that it is a few degrees >> before/after (rotation wise)  the timing pointer (A little >> help here, can't recall which way is before/after TDC) >> thereby retarding the timing, then you can use your EM4 to >> ensure the timing setting in the EC3 for the Advance/Retard >> you want when engine is running.  Then when you initially >> start, the firing point should occur after TDC by a couple >> degrees reducing the kick back probability and once running >> you can adjust the timing advance once for you normal >> operation and be done with it.. >> >> The main point is setting the static timing point so that it >> occurs af few degrees  after TDC  on the pulley. >> >> Its been a while for me, so the rest of you guys jump in >> here.  Sam shouldn't have to swap out his EC3 to fix his >> kickback problem. >> >> Ed >> >> >> Edward Anderson >> Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC >> 305 Reefton Rd >> Weddington, NC 28104 -0569 >> 704 821 7595 >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com >> " > > >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > >> Sent: 5/25/2019 2:18:11 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to make a program change to my EC3? >> >>> I had an EC-2, and donated my plane to the local EAA chapter >>> who sold it to another user, so I no longer have the manual, >>> but I believe it had a programming option for advancing the >>> timing when the engine is running, so why not RETARD the >>> timing mechanically and then use the advance system to bring >>> it forward when running? >>> >>> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 8:36 AM Charlie England >>> ceengland7@gmail.com >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Another option would be the MegaSquirt/MicroSquirt >>> family of controllers. Seems to be pretty mature tech, >>> and at least in the case of the MicroSquirt, a very >>> compact and affordable package. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> On 5/25/2019 9:28 AM, Finn Lassen >>> finn.lassen@verizon.net >>> wrote: >>>> Tracy suggested I look into >>>> https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Speeduino >>>> >>>> Sounds like a low-cost solution. But would require >>>> hardware changes and programming. >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> On 5/25/2019 9:59 AM, Sam Hoskins sam.hoskins@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>>> I have an EC3 installed in my O-200 powered Quickie >>>>> Q-200 . I was >>>>> wondering if anyone might have any suggestions.?? I >>>>> need a simple (famous last words) programming change >>>>> and was wondering if anyone might have any idea how I >>>>> might do this. >>>>> >>>>> The problem is, the spark is not retarded during >>>>> starting and all too often I get a nasty kickback. >>>>> Doesn't happen all the time, but it still occurs.?? I >>>>> have figured out that first running the starter >>>>> without the ignition turned on seems to "loosen up" >>>>> the engine and I have a better chance. This kickback >>>>> has resulted in damage to the starter bearing and I >>>>> have returned it to B&C for repairs. >>>>> >>>>> The circuit hoard has two main chips which are >>>>> removable. The "A" side is the main controller for >>>>> normal operations and the "B" side is the redundant >>>>> side.?? >>>>> >>>>> Is there any someone could figure out what programming >>>>> language was used, then modify it a bit? >>>>> >>>>> Tracy programmed Lyn French's controller to retard the >>>>> spark during starting, so I know it can be done. >>>>> >>>>> If I can't make this programming change, I'll have to >>>>> spend $3,000 - 5,000, installing another system, such >>>>> as SDS, so I'm making a last ditch attempt.?? I would >>>>> appreciate your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Sam >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Avast logo >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast >>> antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> <#m_-1314469336792705814_m_1787248712279016083_m_-8542942413399644492_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------5982ED4720A24028F09E7D0E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hey Sam, I'm assuming you have a dual controller. Do you have a programming mode 8 on the piston version of the controller?

The rotary controllers can use mode 8 to adjust ignition timing +/- 10 degrees. Once you've verified that static timing is where it needs to be for the controller to work correctly in cruise, and determine that you have too much advance for starting, you could consider retarding your B controller timing by the max of 10 degrees and always start on B. That might get your start timing late enough to avoid kickback.

Charlie

On 5/26/2019 7:00 PM, Sam Hoskins sam.hoskins@gmail.com wrote:
 What are you using for your 2nd ignition? How do you start the plane; both on, or if only one, which one?  

I am using the EC3 for the upper and lower sets of plugs, per the installation instructions. I have LS1 coils for the upper and Motocraft for the lower plugs. The coils for each cylinder are tied together so they both fire from the same impulse from the ECU. Everything is on during starting.

So 35 deg would be the maximum advance ever, but operating parameters retard it back to around 23-25 deg BTDC for normal engine operation.  
 
 I don't know if that is true or not. I believe the timing is set via an internal map that the user cannot adjust and changes due to RPM and MAP. I do not have an EM2 to monitor spark advance. I like the idea of cranking the engine while using an automotive timing light to determine how much advance is present during start. Right now I'm waiting for my started & alternator from B&C so it may be a while before I can do this test.

On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 12:46 PM eanderson@carolina.rr.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi Sam,

If memory serves me right, computer control ignitions generally have their static timing set to the maximum advance expected.  Then based on engine operating parmaters such as rpm and manifold pressure the ignition timing is retarded from that maximum advance point.  So 35 deg would be the maximum advance ever, but operating parameters retard it back to around 23-25 deg BTDC for normal engine operation.

Ed

------ Original Message ------
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: 5/26/2019 11:12:37 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to make a program change to my EC3?

I was looking through my blog, written 10 years ago, when I was first setting the system up. I do not have an  em2 monitor. I use an automotive timing light on my ignition settings. I see that at wide open throttle I have a 25 degree advance, but at idle it advances to about 35 degrees. So if the EC3 is starting with that much advance, it's no wonder I'm getting kick back. However, I don't know if there is any sort of a ignition advance built into the EC3 that I don't know about.

This kickback is a relatively new situation. For the first eight years or so I still had one magneto. I recently switched over to all electronic ignition, and that's when this started.

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 9:52 AM eanderson@carolina.rr.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Sam,

Bill makes an excellent suggestion.  When setting up your static timing pointer to your pulley, if you move the spot for TDC on the pulley so that it is a few degrees before/after (rotation wise)  the timing pointer (A little help here, can't recall which way is before/after TDC) thereby retarding the timing, then you can use your EM4 to ensure the timing setting in the EC3 for the Advance/Retard you want when engine is running.  Then when you initially start, the firing point should occur after TDC by a couple degrees reducing the kick back probability and once running you can adjust the timing advance once for you normal operation and be done with it..  

The main point is setting the static timing point so that it occurs af few degrees  after TDC  on the pulley.

Its been a while for me, so the rest of you guys jump in here.  Sam shouldn't have to swap out his EC3 to fix his kickback problem.

Ed


Edward Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Rd
Weddington, NC 28104 -0569
704 821 7595


------ Original Message ------
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: 5/25/2019 2:18:11 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to make a program change to my EC3?

I had an EC-2, and donated my plane to the local EAA chapter who sold it to another user, so I no longer have the manual, but I believe it had a programming option for advancing the timing when the engine is running, so why not RETARD the timing mechanically and then use the advance system to bring it forward when running?

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 8:36 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Another option would be the MegaSquirt/MicroSquirt family of controllers. Seems to be pretty mature tech, and at least in the case of the MicroSquirt, a very compact and affordable package.

Charlie

On 5/25/2019 9:28 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Tracy suggested I look into https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Speeduino

Sounds like a low-cost solution. But would require hardware changes and programming.

Finn

On 5/25/2019 9:59 AM, Sam Hoskins sam.hoskins@gmail.com wrote:
I have an EC3 installed in my O-200 powered Quickie Q-200. I was wondering if anyone might have any suggestions.?? I need a simple (famous last words) programming change and was wondering if anyone might have any idea how I might do this.

The problem is, the spark is not retarded during starting and all too often I get a nasty kickback. Doesn't happen all the time, but it still occurs.?? I have figured out that first running the starter without the ignition turned on seems to "loosen up" the engine and I have a better chance. This kickback has resulted in damage to the starter bearing and I have returned it to B&C for repairs.

The circuit hoard has two main chips which are removable. The "A" side is the main controller for normal operations and the "B" side is the redundant side.??

Is there any someone could figure out what programming language was used, then modify it a bit?

Tracy programmed Lyn French's controller to retard the spark during starting, so I know it can be done.

If I can't make this programming change, I'll have to spend $3,000 - 5,000, installing another system, such as SDS, so I'm making a last ditch attempt.?? I would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks.

Sam





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