X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=cpHlbGwi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=MXRAKZlQQgzJ5ErwEh8GJw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=ZSkGlsT3Cb9Wv7wUfPYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Fzxfb-H1F4MA:10 a=VOUAHHgLdBaWTRlstKYA:9 a=7Zt2YayHEyHdMBwe:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.10) with ESMTPS id 12098284 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 10:08:00 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.173; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f173.google.com with SMTP id e5so8965341plb.5 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:08:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=27rqkLm9mYzuxapY2+O32JICglR7XrDbTHgdSNtwr0Q=; b=gXGqdKdoq2k+bQ0rSQr63SGh0C3WwKRMm7RlWpQ3ntXGKPQ2xuyxL1M5+ufgsBq64a 7SE4yamr8jqeZ6ss1xGHhGtIt7ZdjCbbKCwhjudC6qnNZG1kwClseh2Te8me+2sk68pr dWcU8cxogMFsR6vZe2zxMdBTFZyymwxLbahnHtEMQasaTYdylRV5riPYi7XsgzhrHxyI 2Sl4P4JaNb52id0RI6FNktEbi1sMLRrMo4ZOTMmr5JxzD/s0dg0VdY5Qg9UzlusWXVcn iDr83pbNcfTa6RQsmZh9Skj1P9y2Ap0OKxk1vsU6RxVAvFgFqM+HUvdpMUYNSHtq8nt1 ppjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=27rqkLm9mYzuxapY2+O32JICglR7XrDbTHgdSNtwr0Q=; b=M1VIkBgosw9pMcvqAtSm8ybXiB0Lco8yVGYm40OhOqMjNycxsnh/tjOy8JtrZ1PKvx a+R6jJlOy8nTLyvA9LmzQKrtst74taOFRJfOXaZv5yya/6ndxSOPZPOaq+ji+u/G2tPg NaLyAiLRExlXwG4E/qDjoFgIyrJuPc5gj6+CDgqvU77f9Pb99ViSTZHrAowpXkhrM3MH mTuq/eKAs3aAWSHGB2JL1DyyCuS9xseSSFp/EroSr9W6TyzVNXtBsHKQcUeojwhbRZVM /fQhSqgnRBI1NqKrG4AselHPcxNeBR/6uiIGLKDkckAp08n1thJ4Ipe8MHXI/s3xwn4s /ZaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeG7RXOsBAatBa/2DVaW3rU3sanzHOZlkNwWK1L+5MsXWalwFzw qPHlZQ3GhMWPAnB7HJwBns0g3HDwPghUx+YkWHZI4g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN73XIC6yIzIg1xqKUfKGL7QJHRKd/AgL7zJcFJIkGYnKwv8BrKmBA7DVKqrXeh5O1xulTJ+BfQZEa5xfakdO/c= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e18d:: with SMTP id cd13mr22175517plb.262.1547392062277; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:07:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 09:06:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: stacked thrust bearing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000334a5f057f584aa3" --000000000000334a5f057f584aa3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of my engineer buddies has made the comment that there are now available inexpensive *ball* bearings that could easily handle both the high rpm and the thrust loads generated by the gear set. He also said that there are companies that will make all the bits & pieces for a spur gear planet set for relatively little money; he guesstimated around $500 for a planet set at our choice of ratios. I'm not the person to pull it off, but it is intriguing to consider something in the 2.4/1--2.5/1 range that would allow prop carvers to make their 'standard' prop for us instead of what happened to Sam H in his dealing with Catto. Might open the door for hydraulic C/S props, too, for the 'boosted' set. Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:49 AM Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Awesome work Steve. > > > > I suspected but did not know as fact that the drive filled with oil, > particularly on the C drive. The B drive incorporates a pumping mechanis= m > formed by the spinning ring gear and a sloped pocket machined into the > housing. How effective this is I do not know but it was not possible to = do > the same on the C drive since the ring gear is stationary. I accepted th= e > possible power losses from excessive oil rather than going for the weight > and complexity of a scavenging pump. > > > > I should also add that I do not know for sure that the stacked needle > bearings are actually needed in the C drive. The single roller bearing i= n > the B drive may be adequate and it is the same thickness as the two stack= ed > needle bearings. This would eliminate the shaft and race wear problem > completely. I plan to change over to the B drive bearing the next time = I > look inside the drive. Even if the life of the bearing was reduced by 90= % > it would still be a 1000 hour replacement interval. I realize that beari= ng > wear is not linear with speed though. > > > > Still stuck at the house for the last month due to the river flooding the > road to Shady Bend. Down to my last frozen pizza, hope it don=E2=80=99t = rain and > the creek don=E2=80=99t rise =F0=9F=98=8A > > > > Tracy > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu > *Sent: *Saturday, January 12, 2019 9:41 PM > *To: *Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] stacked thrust bearing > > > > > > Tracy and Neil, > > > > In order to prove to myself that the RPM is divided between the stacked > thrust bearings, I installed a Hall effect sensor in the mounting plate a= nd > silver brazed triggers to the middle thrust washer. An inductive pickup > was installed to monitor the rotation of the flexplate (input shaft). Th= is > allowed the determination of the input shaft RPM as well as the middle > washer RPM under various conditions. The load on the drive was from a 3 > blade 72" dia Warp drive prop with the tip angle set to 20 degrees. > > > > All new bearing components as used in the -C drive were tested along with > a used cupped middle thrust washer from a C6 transmission. The cupped > thrust washer was tested because it was possible that the cup overlapping > the 3.5mm shaft side thrust washer would prevent the middle washer from > contacting and causing wear of the input shaft. After seeing the results > from the used cupped washer, new cupped washers were obtained and tested > also. > > > > In the course of testing the thrust bearing configurations, it was found > that the reduction drive always operates completely filled with oil. The > added triggers may have affected the behavior of the bearing stack due to > drag between them and the surrounding oil. To see if this was the case, > the drive was modified such that the drive contained about 5 to 6 oz of o= il > during operation rather than the about 20 oz of oil when completely fille= d. > > > > The results are shown in the attached plots. > > > > These results indicate that, with all new components including a new flat > middle washer, the RPM was reasonably well divided between the two thrust > bearings and affected little by the amount of oil in the gearbox. With t= he > used cupped middle thrust washer, essentially all the RPM was seen by the > mounting plate side bearing. With the new cupped middle thrust washer, t= he > RPM distribution between the thrust bearings was affected by engine RPM > when the gearbox was completely oil filled but little affected by RPM whe= n > the gearbox was drained. > > > > All the results were obtained with an input shaft that didn't have a > groove worn in it by the middle thrust washer. > > > > My conclusion is that with all new bearing components and unworn shaft th= e > system behaves as desired. With used components, the behavior is unknown= . > The cupped thrust washer is not a solution to the shaft wear issue becaus= e > of the uneven RPM distribution when submerged in oil and since shaft wear > has resulted from the bearing cages as well as the middle washer. > > > > The internal gearbox pressure with -6 drain lines was about 4 psi when > cold and about 2 psi when warm which may have implications in terms of > input seal leakage and the seal coming out of its bore. The completely o= il > filled gearbox consumes extra power which is converted to heat but > apparently not so much as to cause serious problems. > > > > All the above are simply results of my curiosity. You are most welcome t= o > draw your own conclusions. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> --000000000000334a5f057f584aa3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One= of my engineer buddies has made the comment that there are now available i= nexpensive *ball* bearings that could easily handle both the high rpm and t= he thrust loads generated by the gear set. He also said that there are comp= anies that will make all the bits & pieces for a spur gear planet set f= or relatively little money; he guesstimated around $500 for a planet set at= our choice of ratios. I'm not the person to pull it off, but it is int= riguing to consider something in the 2.4/1--2.5/1=C2=A0 range that would al= low prop carvers to make their 'standard' prop for us=C2=A0 instead= of what happened to Sam H in his dealing with Catto. Might open the door f= or hydraulic C/S props, too, for the 'boosted' set.

Charlie

3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, J= an 13, 2019 at 8:49 AM Tracy Crook rw= stracy@gmail.com <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Awesome work Steve.=C2=A0 <= /p>

=C2=A0

I = suspected but did not know as fact that the drive filled with oil, particul= arly on the C drive.=C2=A0 The B drive incorporates a pumping mechanism for= med by the spinning ring gear and a sloped pocket machined into the housing= .=C2=A0 How effective this is I do not know but it was not possible to do t= he same on the C drive since the ring gear is stationary.=C2=A0 I accepted = the possible power losses from excessive oil rather than going for the weig= ht and complexity of a scavenging pump.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I should also add that I do no= t know for sure that the stacked needle bearings are actually needed in the= C drive.=C2=A0 The single roller bearing in the B drive may be adequate an= d it is the same thickness as the two stacked needle bearings.=C2=A0 This w= ould eliminate the shaft and race wear problem completely. =C2=A0=C2=A0I pl= an to change over to the B drive bearing the next time I look inside the dr= ive.=C2=A0 Even if the life of the bearing was reduced by 90% it would stil= l be a 1000 hour replacement interval.=C2=A0 I realize that bearing wear is= not linear with speed though.

=C2=A0

Still stuck at the house for the last month du= e to the river flooding the road to Shady Bend.=C2=A0 Down to my last froze= n pizza, hope it don=E2=80=99t rain and the creek don=E2=80=99t rise =F0=9F=98=8A

=C2=A0

Tracy

=C2=A0

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

<= /u>=C2=A0

From: Steven W. Boese S= Boese@uwyo.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 9:41 PM
To: R= otary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] stacked thrust = bearing

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Tracy and Neil,

= =C2=A0

<= p>In order to prove to myself th= at the RPM is divided between the stacked thrust bearings, I installed a Ha= ll effect sensor in the mounting plate and silver brazed triggers to the mi= ddle thrust washer.=C2=A0 An inductive pickup was installed to monitor the = rotation of the flexplate (input shaft).=C2=A0 This allowed the determinati= on of the input shaft RPM as well as the middle washer RPM under various co= nditions. The load on the drive was from a 3 blade 72" dia=C2=A0 Warp = drive prop with the tip angle set to 20 degrees. =C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

All new bearing = components as used in the -C drive were tested along with a used cupped mid= dle thrust washer from a C6 transmission.=C2=A0 The cupped thrust washer wa= s tested because it was possible that the cup overlapping the 3.5mm shaft s= ide thrust washer would prevent the middle washer from contacting and causi= ng wear of the input shaft.=C2=A0 After seeing the results from the used cu= pped washer, new cupped washers were obtained and tested also.

=C2=A0<= /u>

In the course o= f testing the thrust bearing configurations, it was found that the reductio= n drive always operates completely filled with oil.=C2=A0 The added trigger= s may have affected the behavior of the bearing stack due to drag between t= hem and the surrounding oil.=C2=A0 To see if this was the case, the drive w= as modified such that the drive contained about 5 to 6 oz of oil during ope= ration rather than the about 20 oz of oil when completely filled.=

=C2=A0<= u>

The results = are shown in the attached plots.

=C2=A0

These results indicate that, with all new c= omponents including a new flat middle washer, the RPM was reasonably well d= ivided between the two thrust bearings and affected little by the amount of= oil in the gearbox.=C2=A0 With the used cupped middle thrust washer, essen= tially all the RPM was seen by the mounting plate side bearing.=C2=A0 With = the new cupped middle thrust washer, the RPM=C2=A0 distribution between the= thrust bearings was affected by engine RPM when the gearbox was completely= oil filled but little affected by RPM when the gearbox was drained.=

=C2= =A0

All the = results were obtained with an input shaft that didn't have a groove wor= n in it by the middle thrust washer. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

My conclusion is that with all new= bearing components and unworn shaft the system behaves as desired.=C2=A0 W= ith used components, the behavior is unknown.=C2=A0 The cupped thrust washe= r is not a solution to the shaft wear issue because of the uneven RPM distr= ibution when submerged in oil and since shaft wear has resulted from the be= aring cages as well as the middle washer.=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

<= p>The internal gearbox pressure = with -6 drain lines was about 4 psi when cold and about 2 psi when warm whi= ch may have implications in terms of input seal leakage and the seal coming= out of its bore.=C2=A0 The completely oil filled gearbox consumes extra po= wer which is converted to heat but apparently not so much as to cause serio= us problems.

=C2=A0

All the above are simply results of my curiosity.=C2=A0 You are m= ost welcome to draw your own conclusions.

=C2=A0

Steve Boese =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0


3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com
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