X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=UschDK4B c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Io3XLIBld6c7WvdWTVA04w==:117 a=7ZeHUF5TpD32QnDE67vapA==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=JHtHm7312UAA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=PZNynz3iBtKmhCaffUMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=mXDPzwDj38GHTSXvapIA:9 a=7BgGxfRd9D8Cff7T:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-yw1-f44.google.com ([209.85.161.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.9) with ESMTPS id 11868666 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:54:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.44; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-yw1-f44.google.com with SMTP id v8-v6so5026774ywh.6 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:54:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=WoXSpunqF8kn1vUcGiIu/WbFkWEdns/6Iwy+VBvOjPo=; b=dNXoBrFteLm3zoINOsHviPeJwfENQ0OKvezd+VCGMe5UZcso4PDOVTUq0d2BwSzIk2 PI12+N2ucQkHJSitv4LIxj67iYNjDgHmMjoFORN020l/a51w2wPQSg6iVq57zq/auS21 JyeR4Z9W67GuBUlhOkr54Pl7Jmu0sSN2ZiMb0oUxgbvOswjR1eMoFOLLJQGazfUOAAWC /HounAnhwS/zoTokSiAqQV+gz2pMW2zBmrc38yR5GeaANUJdPD0GfQfWTsB7RNsJzlUk wuKcWcdv4w55AkFhv70i1Yu6VPR1QocNhHGhnw756qW97JubOzP5ZYA+p+zltIRw78Eg E+sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=WoXSpunqF8kn1vUcGiIu/WbFkWEdns/6Iwy+VBvOjPo=; b=Z3Lm7+rFyd+TPPpJxRIYmX/vYS+hWrI5qPFTH71WKs239m7dcAEzjfx/u5dCJ/Vdis TPALNgxT4Fbf/K19uzDA6fk3YgnF29ZQ9acV3zkflXyfl0v5JJQUmz6YMn4zNn+iaP4m hrcD5w2M041/ZKc4awAND3J8nIv2re5pApMeTLRjYl2oo5Fh8GmrqiP/8UOy72btGYSk cu8wuN7W+zq/r+i0em0RgoMpegbtQPoMasGzzMirIwA7sycBEJhU6His7NyGtuHVHSCN pCHpB2iwsUQ6j54K7zL+X3mssTGSk7Dc99pIGDMhRWpGqSYE7acxkcXB+63oAaoHcDA+ 8A3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIEbCMEbr1/Cx3z1cfXm9TZOHKcetwe+xlxWKv7xJbmBf/4yGOR I4Qmm7YB8HCBFxMeytb4TTMp+GlR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dROB1nUYuykSzdFI86NxkETFvdU+u2zMRNFciHASjJU6DU776mxvLxtlhqNQtVrlQ7pTqSiQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:6643:: with SMTP id a64-v6mr2046619ywc.177.1542063234058; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:53:54 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.217] (mobile-166-170-53-207.mycingular.net. [166.170.53.207]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id x127-v6sm4457872ywf.28.2018.11.12.14.53.52 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:53:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 1mm thrust washer To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:56:11 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------952A35D2575EE2D64FA54090" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 181112-4, 11/12/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------952A35D2575EE2D64FA54090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm no machinist (though I've played one at my neighbor's Bridgeport to make a few bits for my rotary install). I would have thought that setup would be centering the plate's existing hole under the chuck (could be done with a lathe-turned fixture, 1/2" for the chuck and the big end matching the existing hole in the plate), then change to an end mill of the washer OD to cut the depression. My idea would be to replace the 1mm washer with one the same thickness as the  thicker ones (Bobby said 3.5mm?), and mill the depression to end with the same stack height. In this case, mill 2.5mm deep. The new stack would be 3.5/bearing/3.5/bearing/3.5, but 2.5 would be recessed into the plate, leaving the same stack height from plate to snubber. With access to a lathe & mill, the tool & tooling needed shouldn't cost much more than the onesies price for Bobby's oversize washer. As you mentioned, you still need some sort of tooling/fixture to center the cup, so that should be a trade off. Upside (assuming that Locktite stickum will hold a flat washer as well as it can lock bearing races) is that once the depression is milled, it becomes the tooling/fixture for future washer replacement. But it probably won't work; as I said, I'm no machinist and even less engineer. :-) Charlie On 11/12/2018 2:48 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: > > Charlie, > >                  Sounds simple, but to cut the depression in the plate > accurately will take a lot of setup time.  Then whatever depression > you cut will have to be added to the nylon snubber washer and the > whole gear train will be moved backwards as well.  Couls end up time > consuming and very messy IMHO. > > Neil. > > > On 11/13/2018 2:53 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >> Could the same effect be achieved by milling a depression in the 1/2" >> plate? How thick are the thicker washers; 2 mm? If so, mill a 1mm >> depression in the plate, and replace the thin 1 mm washer with a 3rd >> 2 mm washer. IIRC, Locktite makes a 'stickum' that could keep the >> washer embedded in the plate, so it doesn't un-nest when the shaft is >> unloaded. Would this excessively compromise the strength of the plate? >> >> Charlie >> >> On 11/12/2018 7:10 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>> >>> Neil, >>> >>> Looking good. The cup ID may need to be a few thousands over 52mm so >>> not sure if there’s room for a mounting spigot. Depending on >>> material thickness,  the cup will fully enclose one of the 2MM >>> bearings and part of the 3.5mm thrust washer. Possibly add oil path >>> grooves to the front and rear of the cup at 45 degree clocking. >>> Depending on the material thickness the channels may need to be >>> offset. Oil channels may not be necessary. >>> >>> Too early for wine but well caffeinated! >>> >>> Bobby >>> >>> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>> *Sent:* Monday, November 12, 2018 2:26 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 1mm thrust washer >>> >>> Kelly,  I really should not draw freehand --- see if you can make >>> sense of the scribble.  Neil. >>> >>> On 11/12/2018 4:15 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> Neil and All, >>> >>>     Not sure I am visualizing the shape of the of the cup to >>> encapsulate the >>> >>> 1mm thrust washer but would certainly be a customer if Randy >>> Kempf were >>> >>> to gear up to produce them........How about sketch of the >>> proposed shape >>> >>> for those of us that are somewhat mechanically inept...........<:) >>> >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:52 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Bobby, >>> >>>                         Sorry I misunderstood you.  By all >>> means contact >>> Randy as he may be able to fit you in.  He has a complete >>> reduction >>> drive of mine there to measure,  and certainly has the >>> machinery to make >>> same. >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> On 11/12/2018 7:41 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net >>> wrote: >>> > Neil >>> > >>> > I was asking if Randy would consider making the 1mm washer >>> mounting cup. I have a chip detector but removed it due to >>> the 1mm washer / shaft wear creating fuzz every few hours >>> and setting off an alert.  I also measure the gearbox oil >>> temp output. >>> > >>> > Bobby >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > >>> >> On Nov 11, 2018, at 3:15 PM, Neil Unger >>> 12348ung@gmail.com >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Bobby, >>> >> >>> >>                       Another way is >>> what I did, was to put a temp sensor in the pSRU which will >>> let you know if all is not well with elevated temps.  This >>> is standard in heavy trucks,  One in the gear box, and one >>> each in both diffs.  Simple and effective. >>> >> >>> >> Neil. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> On 11/12/2018 6:58 AM, Neil Unger wrote: >>> >>> Bobby, >>> >>> >>> >>>                       I put a >>> magnet in the return line to catch any metal, but only got >>> the "fuzz" you are talking about so simply removed it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Will discuss with Randy re stocking a chip detector.  >>> That will be his commercial decision. >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 11/12/2018 3:29 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Neil, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> That should work. I believe Tracy has suggested the >>> same solution. It would allow for replacing the 1mm washer >>> if needed. I’m thinking aluminum instead of steel to >>> minimize any wear on the washer outer edge if it rotated. I >>> would like to start using my gearbox chip detector again. >>> The 1mm washer shaft contact caused enough fuzz to activate >>> it every few hours so I removed it. Would this be an item >>> Randy Kempf would consider supplying? We need four in Austin >>> TX and I’m sure others would retrofit if the part was >>> available.  The cup OD would need to increased but I think >>> we have plenty of room to accommodate modification. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Thanks, >>> >>>> Bobby >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> On Nov 10, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Neil Unger >>> 12348ung@gmail.com >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Bobby, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>   Tried my bearing blokes with no joy, over that size >>> they are all 1.5mm.  There is another way however if >>> there is room.  I suggest a small alloy (or steel) "cup" >>> with mounting flanges like the washer you want, except in >>> the middle the 1mm washer fits flat against the mounting >>> plate as usual, and the cup then tapers upwards (after the >>> 1mm thick retaining hole at the bottom ) and out slightly >>> (for say another 3mm?) to prevent the 1mm thrust washer to >>> "jump out of bed" and moving sideways. If it does move >>> forward the taper will force it back into place when the >>> load comes on again. My $0.02 worth, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Neil. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------952A35D2575EE2D64FA54090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I'm no machinist (though I've played one at my neighbor's Bridgeport to make a few bits for my rotary install). I would have thought that setup would be centering the plate's existing hole under the chuck (could be done with a lathe-turned fixture, 1/2" for the chuck and the big end matching the existing hole in the plate), then change to an end mill of the washer OD to cut the depression. My idea would be to replace the 1mm washer with one the same thickness as the  thicker ones (Bobby said 3.5mm?), and mill the depression to end with the same stack height. In this case, mill 2.5mm deep. The new stack would be 3.5/bearing/3.5/bearing/3.5, but 2.5 would be recessed into the plate, leaving the same stack height from plate to snubber.

With access to a lathe & mill, the tool & tooling needed shouldn't cost much more than the onesies price for Bobby's oversize washer. As you mentioned, you still need some sort of tooling/fixture to center the cup, so that should be a trade off. Upside (assuming that Locktite stickum will hold a flat washer as well as it can lock bearing races) is that once the depression is milled, it becomes the tooling/fixture for future washer replacement.

But it probably won't work; as I said, I'm no machinist and even less engineer. :-)

Charlie

On 11/12/2018 2:48 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote:

Charlie,

                 Sounds simple, but to cut the depression in the plate accurately will take a lot of setup time.  Then whatever depression you cut will have to be added to the nylon snubber washer and the whole gear train will be moved backwards as well.  Couls end up time consuming and very messy IMHO.

Neil.


On 11/13/2018 2:53 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Could the same effect be achieved by milling a depression in the 1/2" plate? How thick are the thicker washers; 2 mm? If so, mill a 1mm depression in the plate, and replace the thin 1 mm washer with a 3rd 2 mm washer. IIRC, Locktite makes a 'stickum' that could keep the washer embedded in the plate, so it doesn't un-nest when the shaft is unloaded. Would this excessively compromise the strength of the plate?

Charlie

On 11/12/2018 7:10 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

Neil,

 

Looking good. The cup ID may need to be a few thousands over 52mm so not sure if there’s room for a mounting spigot. Depending on material thickness,  the cup will fully enclose one of the 2MM bearings and part of the 3.5mm thrust washer. Possibly add oil path grooves to the front and rear of the cup at 45 degree clocking. Depending on the material thickness the channels may need to be offset. Oil channels may not be necessary.

 

Too early for wine but well caffeinated!

 

Bobby

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 2:26 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1mm thrust washer

 

Kelly,  I really should not draw freehand --- see if you can make sense of the scribble.  Neil.

 

On 11/12/2018 4:15 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:

Neil and All,

    Not sure I am visualizing the shape of the of the cup to encapsulate the 

1mm thrust washer but would certainly be a customer if Randy Kempf were

to gear up to produce them........How about sketch of the proposed shape

for those of us that are somewhat mechanically inept...........<:)

 

Kelly Troyer 

 

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:52 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bobby,

                        Sorry I misunderstood you.  By all means contact
Randy as he may be able to fit you in.  He has a complete reduction
drive of mine there to measure,  and certainly has the machinery to make
same.

Neil.


On 11/12/2018 7:41 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:
> Neil
>
> I was asking if Randy would consider making the 1mm washer mounting cup. I have a chip detector but removed it due to the 1mm washer / shaft wear creating fuzz every few hours and setting off an alert.  I also measure the gearbox oil temp output.
>
> Bobby
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Nov 11, 2018, at 3:15 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>
>> Bobby,
>>
>>                       Another way is what I did, was to put a temp sensor in the pSRU which will let you know if all is not well with elevated temps.  This is standard in heavy trucks,  One in the gear box, and one each in both diffs.  Simple and effective.
>>
>> Neil.
>>
>>
>>> On 11/12/2018 6:58 AM, Neil Unger wrote:
>>> Bobby,
>>>
>>>                       I put a magnet in the return line to catch any metal, but only got the "fuzz" you are talking about so simply removed it.
>>>
>>> Will discuss with Randy re stocking a chip detector.  That will be his commercial decision.
>>>
>>> Neil.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/2018 3:29 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:
>>>> Neil,
>>>>
>>>> That should work. I believe Tracy has suggested the same solution. It would allow for replacing the 1mm washer if needed. I’m thinking aluminum instead of steel to minimize any wear on the washer outer edge if it rotated. I would like to start using my gearbox chip detector again. The 1mm washer shaft contact caused enough fuzz to activate it every few hours so I removed it. Would this be an item Randy Kempf would consider supplying? We need four in Austin TX and I’m sure others would retrofit if the part was available.  The cup OD would need to increased but I think we have plenty of room to accommodate modification.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Bobby
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 10, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bobby,
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Tried my bearing blokes with no joy, over that size they are all 1.5mm.  There is another way however if there is room.  I suggest a small alloy (or steel) "cup" with mounting flanges like the washer you want, except in the middle the 1mm washer fits flat against the mounting plate as usual, and the cup then tapers upwards (after the 1mm thick retaining hole at the bottom ) and out slightly (for say another 3mm?) to prevent the 1mm thrust washer to "jump out of bed" and moving sideways. If it does move forward the taper will force it back into place when the load comes on again.  My $0.02 worth,
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil.


 

 

 



Virus-free. www.avast.com


--------------952A35D2575EE2D64FA54090--