X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=C7Kr8kH+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=pktS5M193B707D4BZWZAqg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=VqmtQeTB-p0A:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=4_-BN3WEXhEA:10 a=JBFolyDoGHsA:10 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=659JURkmLbtTgJahukYA:9 a=69JXWnYieTBUCVlK:21 a=UNP8MvzUjYftFhht:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=fYXQG8k2bRqnEDx6EK0A:9 a=nv7jETHnPSWb-q-K:21 a=5DyBMCla-rhY6jpw:21 a=HeHRajJp3JUoQLeJ:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 From: "Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi0-f51.google.com ([209.85.218.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.7) with ESMTPS id 11594259 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 12:15:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.51; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi0-f51.google.com with SMTP id p84-v6so29754757oic.4 for ; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 09:15:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:subject:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=13G7Fzh1sNzhnZsk60AZLmZczHfbiE2DENAE3tiEQwc=; b=hTl32PtCbuFAythEkX7Sn1NSOTQRQWCQHF2+Y6QGEYYrBilWgmZpBMsMTUZ6k8AQag c+iYJrc7A7CcpJEuRkpjUGhBi8UY/uMssAT3N54UB4W+Ryac3ESd9rZxUfOnzp4AwHoF 2Pa3C+hj/2ZmQnCq3VFSBd3UeI0CX4bmzJP90MZ1+tsKGyIgGEyNTapkdakF09GOKzbR xp9fHIn3ZESEpCms/JYpXe16LyLEEiK2XSp+5vgGt58KG81JLcmHGlzOn7Hy6aEZYv7z gJlP8+JTQSgxcv1o4vJvhE1i46dqkHuxbQx+Y+acDqXMTHGHDdK1rrqDoAtrX9fO3CBp 3wAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date :subject:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=13G7Fzh1sNzhnZsk60AZLmZczHfbiE2DENAE3tiEQwc=; b=Oz6ZsWXaeSlJNBkNWwAc1ragzP33mgLeWI5eaOKNQbFeKkbunfgS93GCaeYTiqcyYv fkFO1s/+G/MkzK4pZFJuo9e5JEqQKxIx84gw344drw2GrO+lKzmg4JsSUstnHAuyQvuY 6ezTPYyWGigebtE3FcecaF9f294ZLavpwpHucJS4TzghRPoU5ofUqEl8RRv7ZmKetuIK BG70GfLrGOQyclmYHurXUcHHzLxZfDux/FmrGe3Dl5Bni+kPaq44o3dMExXHkt4k8DfT e85ZwS9mlLxnKD4HMsTV7j7Q6xxblrMxcX+piw8U7gXYBEvtxTWHsA0Rd9y+VckwbKke 8dmA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CaMNv16cJhukgsjEh8zbLOzW2aTlnFWHCLy+HJ6b9sn2HDTrMt qxywDPj5x3kFCRCqOqUmYyHSN4XH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZXbs5p+hXme/dRZnXBXih2N7kgXUvyAK7B88HhaYoHawVzGX2QUX3b7zaRfxvbfUtLbrK+DA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:5e83:: with SMTP id s125-v6mr16705039oib.20.1535904926960; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:2600:100e:b04e:bb47:d440:4772:aa1a:188d? ([2600:100e:b04e:bb47:d440:4772:aa1a:188d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f4-v6sm39916233oic.52.2018.09.02.09.15.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Sep 2018 09:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BB083628-F18A-4EC1-AD79-3D7D756E7F2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 10:15:23 -0600 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: wiring / incident report Message-Id: <834633ED-7A47-4894-A23F-F1B3FA5ABDFA@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPad Mail (15G77) --Apple-Mail-BB083628-F18A-4EC1-AD79-3D7D756E7F2F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good comments Bobby. RFI (radio frequency interference) is an age old prob= lem with electronics when working with nearby radio transmitters. =20 The EC2/3 fix that has worked in all the cases where relocating cables, ante= nnas etc. was not successful has been to install a .1 uf capacitor from the m= ap sensor output to ground. I=E2=80=99m at my off grid shack in CO so don=E2= =80=99t have all my files with the details of that fix but it=E2=80=99s prob= ably in the archives here somewhere. I=E2=80=99m still repairing my RV-8 that stays here in CO. Here are the go= ry details.=20 I had an incident on takeoff a few weeks ago. Just as I was approaching ro= tation speed a strong crosswind gust that overpowered full rudder forced me o= ff the left side of the runway. Did I mention it was a STRONG gust? The gr= ound was reasonably smooth so I elected to continue the takeoff as the safer= option since I was within a second or two from liftoff.=20 That plan went fine until I hit the edge of an intersecting taxiway. There w= as about a 4 to 5 inch drop off at the edge and when my left gear hit this o= bstacle at ~60 mph the following events happened in rapid succession. The l= eft wheel pant impacting the taxiway edge caused all the attach points to br= eak away and it began to rotate underneath the wheel. As it did, the sharp p= oint at the rear impacted the underside of the wing puncturing the skin 1 in= ch behind the wing tank. (This was the single bit of good fortune that day =F0= =9F=98=8F) The hole was big enough to drain the tank very quickly had it bee= n a couple of inches further forward. BTW, This was the left side tank that= always feeds the engine on my setup. I=E2=80=99m guessing the combined effect of hitting the edge of the taxiway a= nd running over the wheel-pant was like hitting an obstacle about 8 inches t= all. It was too much vertical load for the structure to bear so the side of= the fuselage above the gear leg buckled up and folded like an accordion. S= ince this is the area of the fuselage where the forward attach point of the f= uel tank is, it ripped the inboard rib of the fuel tank while folding up cau= sing fuel to start pouring out. =20 Since at this point I was right at minimum liftoff speed, the vertical energ= y of the impact launched me into the air. Time to fly the airplane. Not en= ough room to land straight ahead, the airplane feels 'funny' but controllabl= e so I turn downwind for a close in pattern. It was at this point I noticed= the fuel spraying into the cockpit down where the fuel line enters the fuse= lage. The fumes are so strong that I worry about passing out or fire and th= ink about jettisoning the canopy but the fuel spray stops before I get serio= us about that. The plane is behaving oddly, the main thing being the airspe= ed is way lower than it should be. I began the takeoff with no flaps but th= en I notice that they are now at full flaps, the throttle quadrant and flap c= ontrol switch are mounted just above the left gear so the switch must have b= een forced on during the impact. The linkage to the switch is intact so I t= ake off all the flaps and the airspeed starts coming up. =20 I know I must have a damaged gear but not how badly or even if the gear leg a= nd wheel are still attached. I radio Unicom requesting a visual check of my= gear but no one is on. I worry momentarily about there being enough fuel l= eft in the tank to complete the pattern, state of the landing gear, etc but m= ake the conscious effort to stop worrying about anything other than controll= ing the plane at the moment. That=E2=80=99s the best advice I can give anyo= ne in a situation like this.=20 The rest of the pattern went 'normally', the only difference being the decis= ion on whether to land on or to the side of the paved runway. Not sure it w= as the right choice in retrospect but I chose the pavement. Did a full flap= soft field landing approach and the relief of feeling rubber instead alumin= um touching down was amazing. The gear was far too distorted to maintain no= rmal control but I came to a stop off the left side of runway and right side= up.=20 There were the usual airport bums who gave me all the help needed to get the= plane back in the hangar. They took a look at it and said something like =E2= =80=9CThat is some bad landing damage!=E2=80=9D. They had a hard time bel= ieving it happened on takeoff and made it around the pattern like that. #Me= Too! =F0=9F=98=B1 Matt Dralle who runs one of the RV forum sites did have a landing incident t= hat resulted in exactly the same damage on his RV-8. I checked to see what h= e decided about repairing and he determined he would not try repairing so en= ded up replacing the entire fuselage. I=E2=80=99m going to repair instead. = Won=E2=80=99t be easy but I=E2=80=99m sure it=E2=80=99s doable. I=E2=80=99v= e almost completed the removal of damaged stuff, I=E2=80=99ll order the part= s and put back together when I return next spring. Tracy Crook > On Sep 2, 2018, at 07:41, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >=20 > Andrew,=20 >=20 > I originally had an SL-30 and keying the mike would cause the engine to st= umble. Mark Steitle=E2=80=99s SL-30 would cause erratic capacitance fuel lev= el readings (EFIS) when transmitting. Sam H. had engine stumble but I=E2=80=99= m not sure what radio. My 430w causes a small change in the sound of the eng= ine on the ground but not noticeable in flight. SL-30 has a service bulletin= that helps with this problem. Using double shielded coax, keeping the coax a= way from EC wiring should help. Sam tested different antenna locations more t= o the rear of the aircraft.=20 >=20 > Bobby >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Sep 1, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: >>=20 >> Update: ended up splitting coil power into 2 circuits, leading/trailing, w= ith independent feeds/fuses/switches, now can check ignition on A & B ECU ra= ther than just B as per EC2 wiring. Also cleaned up a bit more wiring as I h= ad inadvertently created a ground loop on my radio to efis serial cable by c= onnecting the shield to ground at both ends by mistake. Radio works better b= ut now an old problem has returned that I thought I had fixed as Tracy had y= ears ago, given instructions on installing some part to the circuit board, w= hen I transmit on radio the engine misses, think the injectors are going ful= l open and flooding engine again. seems to only happen in flight which has g= ot me buggered as the engine cannot know its flying.=20 >>=20 >> Going to try rewiring components back to the battery. as now I think it c= ould be something to do with the battery being moved for CoG and components l= osing their independent feeds & ground back to the battery. >>=20 >> Andrew >>=20 >>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> Interested to know what usually causes the breaker to trip?=20 >>> Is it common to get an amp draw intermittently higher than breaker ratin= g from components that does not really justify increasing wire size & breake= r rating? >>>=20 >>> Up until this corrosion incident fuses have worked for me, But have alwa= ys used fuses & wire size much higher than component requirement, that way i= f a fuse blew, there was a substantial fault somewhere that caused it. btw. o= nly time a fuse has blown is on the ground when some idiot stuck a screwdive= r where it shouldn't go. but then I haven't flown much either to say it wont= happen in the air. >>> Andrew >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com wrote: >>>> I use Corrosion X on any electrical connection I think may need it. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t use fuses on anything in the airplane. Just a personal ha= ng up. Having a manually resettable breaker has saved me lots of times, eve= n on non flight critical stuff. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Tracy Crook >>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-BB083628-F18A-4EC1-AD79-3D7D756E7F2F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good comments Bobby.   RFI (radio freq= uency interference) is an age old problem with electronics when working with= nearby radio transmitters.   

The EC2/3 fix th= at has worked in all the cases where relocating cables, antennas etc. was no= t successful has been to install a .1 uf capacitor from the map sensor outpu= t to ground.  I=E2=80=99m at my off grid shack in CO so don=E2=80=99t h= ave all my files with the details of that fix but it=E2=80=99s probably in t= he archives here somewhere.

I=E2=80=99m still repai= ring my RV-8 that stays here in CO.   Here are the gory details. <= /div>
 I had an incident on takeoff a few weeks ago.  Just as I= was approaching rotation speed a strong crosswind gust that overpowered ful= l rudder forced me off the left side of the runway.  Did I mention it w= as a STRONG gust?  The ground was reasonably smooth so I elected to con= tinue the takeoff as the safer option since I was within a second or two fro= m liftoff. 

That plan went fine until I hit th= e edge of an intersecting taxiway.  There was about a 4 to 5 inch drop o= ff at the edge and when my left gear hit this obstacle at ~60 mph the follow= ing events happened in rapid succession.  The left wheel pant impacting= the taxiway edge caused all the attach points to break away and it began to= rotate underneath the wheel.  As it did, the sharp point at the rear i= mpacted the underside of the wing puncturing the skin 1 inch behind the wing= tank. (This was the single bit of good fortune that day =F0=9F=98=8F) The h= ole was big enough to drain the tank very quickly had it been a couple of in= ches further forward.  BTW, This was the left side tank that always fee= ds the engine on my setup.

I=E2=80=99m guessing the= combined effect of hitting the edge of the taxiway and running over the whe= el-pant was like hitting an obstacle about 8 inches tall.  It was too m= uch vertical load for the structure to bear so the side of the fuselage abov= e the gear leg buckled up and folded like an accordion.  Since this is t= he area of the fuselage where the forward attach point of the fuel tank is, i= t ripped the inboard rib of the fuel tank while folding up causing fuel to s= tart pouring out.  

Since at this point I was r= ight at minimum liftoff speed, the vertical energy of the impact launched me= into the air.  Time to fly the airplane.  Not enough room to land= straight ahead, the airplane feels 'funny' but controllable so I turn downw= ind for a close in pattern.  It was at this point I noticed the fuel sp= raying into the cockpit down where the fuel line enters the fuselage.  = The fumes are so strong that I worry about passing out or fire and think abo= ut jettisoning the canopy but the fuel spray stops before I get serious abou= t that.  The plane is behaving oddly, the main thing being the airspeed= is way lower than it should be.  I began the takeoff with no flaps but= then I notice that they are now at full flaps, the throttle quadrant and fl= ap control switch are mounted just above the left gear so the switch must ha= ve been forced on during the impact.  The linkage to the switch is inta= ct so I take off all the flaps and the airspeed starts coming up.  

I know I must have a damaged gear but not how badly or= even if the gear leg and wheel are still attached.  I radio Unicom req= uesting a visual check of my gear but no one is on.  I worry momentaril= y about there being enough fuel left in the tank to complete the pattern, st= ate of the landing gear, etc but make the conscious effort to stop worrying a= bout anything other than controlling the plane at the moment.  That=E2=80= =99s the best advice I can give anyone in a situation like this. 
=

The rest of the pattern went 'normally', the only differ= ence being the decision on whether to land on or to the side of the paved ru= nway.   Not sure it was the right choice in retrospect but I chose the p= avement.  Did a full flap soft field landing approach and the relief of= feeling rubber instead aluminum touching down was amazing.  The gear w= as far too distorted to maintain normal control but I came to a stop off the= left side of runway and right side up. 

There= were the usual airport bums who gave me all the help needed to get the plan= e back in the hangar.   They took a look at it and said something like =E2= =80=9CThat is some bad landing damage!=E2=80=9D.    They had a har= d time believing it happened on takeoff and made it around the pattern like t= hat.  #MeToo!  =F0=9F=98=B1

Matt Dralle w= ho runs one of the RV forum sites did have a landing incident that resulted i= n exactly the same damage on his RV-8.  I checked to see what he decide= d about repairing and he determined he would not try repairing so ended up r= eplacing the entire fuselage.  I=E2=80=99m going to repair instead. &nb= sp;Won=E2=80=99t be easy but I=E2=80=99m sure it=E2=80=99s doable. I=E2=80=99= ve almost completed the removal of damaged stuff, I=E2=80=99ll order the par= ts and put back together when I return next spring.

Tracy Crook

On Sep 2, 2018, at 07:41, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=
Andrew, 

I ori= ginally had an SL-30 and keying the mike would cause the engine to stumble. M= ark Steitle=E2=80=99s SL-30 would cause erratic capacitance fuel level readi= ngs (EFIS) when transmitting. Sam H. had engine stumble but I=E2=80=99m not s= ure what radio. My 430w causes a small change in the sound of the engine on t= he ground but not noticeable in flight. SL-30 has a service bulletin that he= lps with this problem. Using double shielded coax, keeping the coax away fro= m EC wiring should help. Sam tested different antenna locations more to the r= ear of the aircraft. 

Bobby


Sent from my i= Pad

On Sep 1, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Update: ended u= p splitting coil power into 2 circuits, leading/trailing, with independent f= eeds/fuses/switches, now can check ignition on A & B ECU rather than jus= t B as per EC2 wiring. Also cleaned up a bit more wiring as I had inadverten= tly created a ground loop on my radio to efis serial cable by connecting the= shield to ground at both ends by mistake. Radio works better but now an old= problem has returned that I thought I had fixed as Tracy had years ago, giv= en instructions on installing some part to the circuit board, when I transmi= t on radio the engine misses, think the injectors are going full open and fl= ooding engine again. seems to only happen in flight which has got me buggere= d as the engine cannot know its flying.

Going t= o try rewiring components back to the battery. as now I think it could be so= mething to do with the battery being moved for CoG and components losing the= ir independent feeds & ground back to the battery.

Andrew

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Andrew Mart= in andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
= Interested to know what usually causes the breaker to trip?
I= s it common to get an amp draw intermittently higher than breaker rating fro= m components that does not really justify increasing wire size & breaker= rating?

Up until this corrosion incident fuses hav= e worked for me, But have always used fuses & wire size much higher than= component requirement, that way if a fuse blew, there was a substantial fau= lt somewhere that caused it. btw. only time a fuse has blown is on the groun= d when some idiot stuck a screwdiver where it shouldn't go. but then I haven= 't flown much either to say it wont happen in the air.
Andrew
<= /div>


On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com <= span dir=3D"ltr"><flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I use Corrosion X on any electrical connec= tion I think may need it.  But I don=E2=80=99t use fuses on anything in= the airplane.  Just a personal hang up.  Having a manually resett= able breaker has saved me lots of times, even on non flight critical stuff. &= nbsp;

Tracy Crook


= --Apple-Mail-BB083628-F18A-4EC1-AD79-3D7D756E7F2F--