From: "A R Goldman argoldman@aol.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:16:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyrotary ] RE: Tension Bolts
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To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>


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Great history Lynn,thanks

It gave me tension just reading it=F0=9F=98=81.=20

One thing that is missing (unless i missed it) was the multiple rings machin=
ed or forged into the bolts in my Renesis. Additionally, there was only one b=
olt that had the plastic sheath on it. I think that it was one of the bolts t=
hat was external to the ring in which most of the other bolts are arranged (=
near the bottom of the engine.)

The engine was a first time rebuild with extremely low milage. I overhauled i=
t with new seals, oil control rings, and all consumables to verify the story=
 that i had been told about the history of the engine as well as to satisfy m=
y own curiosity about the Wankel in general.=20

At this time the engine has not been run and is awaiting reunification with t=
he airframe (after the SS firewall is cut and installed)

Thanks all for your bolt responses. I hope, in the future to publish a tabul=
ation of the results.=20

Rich


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:48 PM, Accountlehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@=
lancaironline.net> wrote:
>=20
> Tension bolt failures are rare when operating below 8,000 RPM. This is cau=
sed by the bolt ringing, or being sympathetic to major frequencies produced b=
y the engine. Early engines were mounted by the front cover and the next sup=
port was the transmission mount. So a big bending load was always in play.  U=
nder shock loading such as a dropped clutch, the engine twists against the d=
owels and this is resisted by only the front cover. Later engines were suppo=
rted by mounts bolted to the center iron. This helped with failures of broke=
n dowels in very high output engines. Later engines were supported only by t=
he rear iron for the same reason. Some early engines would break a chunk out=
 of the rear iron dowel hole. These were drag racing engines at high power s=
ettings being shifted with dog ring transmissions that produce brutal shock l=
oads.   So, builders started adding more dowels. Works well up to big HP. Th=
en add turbocharging and more broken dowels. Then add more dowels and, or, a=
dd oversized bolts. or studs. The stack has to be assembled and holes reamed=
 to be a tight fit on the bolts. Holes drilled out and re threaded. And stup=
id high torque on the bigger bolts. The next step was to increase the size o=
f the oil pan bolt holes, and then add a thick plate to the engine with a ho=
le in the center under the center iron drain back hole. Bolt the pan to that=
 or just run a dry sump and the plate would have no through hole at all.  Ai=
rplane engines probably will never make enough torque to have these problems=
.
>=20
>        Later engines came with a sort of rubber hose molded around the cen=
ter of each bolt which cured the problem. Or you can add a spiral of silicon=
e (GE 100% pure) tub and tile caulk, the full length of the bolt. Let it gel=
 up for a few minutes before inserting the bolt. The effect is that you sort=
 of glue the bolt to the engine so it cannot ring. It makes a giant mess but=
 it is cheap. I only had two bolts break in 30 years. Later bolts are not ne=
cked down. I never lost one of those. I never used Mocal coolers so I cannot=
 comment.=20
>=20
> Lynn E. Hanover
>=20
> In a message dated 7/4/2018 7:49:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la=
ncaironline.net writes:
>=20
> My aluminum plate is 0.5" thick; you can see it is routed around the rubbe=
r mounts, the center is wide open - just a 2.5"-3"" strip of metal left arou=
nd the oil pan bolts/engine mating surface.
> Jeff
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> Out of curiosity (of course otherwise why would i ask) what is the thickne=
ss of your plate between the pan and the engine?
>=20
> Happy 4th
>=20
> Rich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Whaley=20
> Sent: July-03-18 10:41 AM
> To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft'
> Subject: RE: [flyrotary ] RE: Tension Bolts
>=20
> Rich, my engine is a 1988 13B, normally aspirated, aluminum plate bed moun=
t, so the engine is held in-place by the oil pan bolts. The aluminum plate a=
nd engine mount are of my own design and construction.
> Jeff
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> Thanks Jeff
>=20
> Which model of rotary
>=20
> What kind of engine mount
>=20
> Any other modifications to the engine
>=20
> Rich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Whaley=20
> Sent: July-03-18 9:54 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: RE: [flyrotary ] RE: Tension Bolts
>=20
> FWIW: I had one broken tension bolt on spark plug side of the engine; not e=
xactly sure which one but it was around the 10 o'clock position if looking a=
t the bolt heads end. The bolt broke in the threaded portion right where the=
 threads were no longer engaged with the housing ... this was posted way bac=
k in 2011 ... see message #53485. Jeff
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h=
tml

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Great history Lynn,thanks<div><br></div><di=
v>It gave me tension just reading it=F0=9F=98=81.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div>=
<div>One thing that is missing (unless i missed it) was the multiple rings m=
achined or forged into the bolts in my Renesis. Additionally, there was only=
 one bolt that had the plastic sheath on it. I think that it was one of the b=
olts that was external to the ring in which most of the other bolts are arra=
nged (near the bottom of the engine.)</div><div><br></div><div>The engine wa=
s a first time rebuild with extremely low milage. I overhauled it with new s=
eals, oil control rings, and all consumables to verify the story that i had b=
een told about the history of the engine as well as to satisfy my own curios=
ity about the Wankel in general.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>At this time=
 the engine has not been run and is awaiting reunification with the airframe=
 (after the SS firewall is cut and installed)</div><div><br></div><div>Thank=
s all for your bolt responses. I hope, in the future to publish a tabulation=
 of the results.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Rich</div><div><br></div><di=
v><br><div><br></div><div><br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from m=
y iPhone</div><div><br>On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:48 PM, Accountlehanover <a href=3D=
"mailto:lehanover@aol.com">lehanover@aol.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:flyro=
tary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">
<div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;">Tension bolt failures are ra=
re when operating below 8,000 RPM. This is caused by the bolt ringing, or be=
ing sympathetic to major frequencies produced by the engine. Early engines w=
ere mounted by the front cover and the next support was the transmission mou=
nt. So a big bending load was always in play.&nbsp; Under shock loading such=
 as a dropped clutch, the engine twists against the dowels and this is resis=
ted by only the front cover. Later engines were supported by mounts bolted t=
o the center iron. This helped with failures of broken dowels in very high o=
utput engines. Later engines were supported only by the rear iron for the sa=
me reason. Some early engines would break a chunk out of the rear iron dowel=
 hole. These were drag racing engines at high power settings being shifted w=
ith dog ring transmissions that produce brutal shock loads.&nbsp; &nbsp;So, b=
uilders started adding more dowels. Works well up to big HP. Then add turboc=
harging and more broken dowels. Then add more dowels and, or, add oversized b=
olts. or studs. The stack has to be assembled and holes reamed to be a tight=
 fit on the bolts. Holes drilled out and re threaded. And stupid high torque=
 on the bigger bolts. The next step was to increase the size of the oil pan b=
olt holes, and then add a thick plate to the engine with a hole in the cente=
r under the center iron drain back hole. Bolt the pan to that or just run a d=
ry sump and the plate would have no through hole at all.&nbsp; Airplane engi=
nes probably will never make enough torque to have these problems.</span></d=
iv>
<div><br></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;"> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
Later engines came with a sort of rubber hose molded around the center of ea=
ch bolt which cured the problem. Or you can add a spiral of silicone (GE 100=
% pure) tub and tile caulk, the full length of the bolt. Let it gel up for a=
 few minutes before inserting the bolt. The effect is that you sort of glue t=
he bolt to the engine so it cannot ring. It makes a giant mess but it is che=
ap. I only had two bolts break in 30 years. Later bolts are not necked down.=
 I never lost one of those. I never used Mocal coolers so I cannot comment.&=
nbsp;<br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;">Lynn E. Hanover</span></div>=

<div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;"><br></span></div>
</div>
In a message dated 7/4/2018 7:49:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, <a href=3D"mai=
lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a> writes:
<div><br></div>
<div class=3D"quotedReply">
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left: blue 2=
px solid;"><span style=3D"background-color: transparent; color: #000000; fon=
t-family: Arial; font-size: small;"> My aluminum plate is 0.5" thick; you ca=
n see it is routed around the rubber mounts, the center is wide open - just a=
 2.5"-3"" strip of metal left around the oil pan bolts/engine mating surface=
.<br>Jeff<br> <br>-----Original Message-----<br>Out of curiosity (of course o=
therwise why would i ask) what is the thickness of your plate between the pa=
n and the engine?<br><br>Happy 4th<br><br>Rich<br><br>-----Original Message-=
----<br>From: Jeff Whaley <br>Sent: July-03-18 10:41 AM<br>To: 'Rotary motor=
s in aircraft'<br>Subject: RE: [flyrotary ] RE: Tension Bolts<br><br>Rich, m=
y engine is a 1988 13B, normally aspirated, aluminum plate bed mount, so the=
 engine is held in-place by the oil pan bolts. The aluminum plate and engine=
 mount are of my own design and construction.<br>Jeff<br><br><br>-----Origin=
al Message-----<br>Thanks Jeff<br><br>Which model of rotary<br><br>What kind=
 of engine mount<br><br>Any other modifications to the engine<br><br>Rich<br=
><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Jeff Whaley <br>Sent: July-03-18 9:=
54 AM<br>To: Rotary motors in aircraft<br>Subject: RE: [flyrotary ] RE: Tens=
ion Bolts<br><br>FWIW: I had one broken tension bolt on spark plug side of t=
he engine; not exactly sure which one but it was around the 10 o'clock posit=
ion if looking at the bolt heads end. The bolt broke in the threaded portion=
 right where the threads were no longer engaged with the housing ... this wa=
s posted way back in 2011 ... see message #53485. Jeff<br><br><br><br>--<br>=
Homepage: <a href=3D"http://www.flyrotary.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noo=
pener">http://www.flyrotary.com/</a><br>Archive and UnSub: <a href=3D"http:/=
/mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noopener">http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html</a><br=
> </span></blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>=

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