X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=HLeBLclv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=XctRYEjJKDyqwrRPDk1QTQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=7mUfYlMuFuIA:10 a=QhLrsF9qAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=JoQWYm39AAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=vxE4bBEkAAAA:20 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=hmr7GnWHKzsJZeENresA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=IkjpSqh8nCqrNO8B:21 a=iE9oar577T_TsS3s:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=oHvirCaBAAAA:8 a=7DcllFJ7KQzzyj900agA:9 a=aUPSIhdkYQ2wZyQv:21 a=fwo0rjIlLiUtuoOG:21 a=w-ZUyysvpoUTnw2A:21 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=i4tH8neNAzHi3qRh_LgF:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-wm0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.5) with ESMTPS id 11270400 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:32:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.53; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm0-f53.google.com with SMTP id r15-v6so11280465wmc.1 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Tr6lb58yvPwiV4rNDBokhrf7OnPSuvEq0DFP7E00v+0=; b=YXLZp3sFTzHE9w+iRIq5NJgdjhFtLOSMkB09zkmzfeZgfBTUIovXit0ONhelhJNocJ hz9OXFxSteBNL3XLgz6YSHBaFL/zaCsXLRc0nmP1UIVasdTk4q/aNn0mbgUdu2hgPn0T Kye1bemTkJAMsPacQq5zDBbKHD1Q7plM8dy/OU+oIiMJ3vK+2z0WqEUsvufvUsqRxCZx Msfrr7Cdu0E1vWyXd+C0pJnM6StC19Tq3Em4kaK+I9tuhL3BUY6iins1bCD40QWCcrJ5 quZwzNt8G83xvs8+jo8ruW/evaqw9xg1sEYrf6G2ydyyIpXCscvxsk+k6TAaIUruAaqT tdzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Tr6lb58yvPwiV4rNDBokhrf7OnPSuvEq0DFP7E00v+0=; b=Wuuc1ZGfAcbsXIdQomQCpNnAyNZJCFPQYzOkUFxQszqlB9CSXqJ78ujL9uhkM/77E3 DLQQLD8D+ApV8CI2yByYdTZHvt1f2V7pt2VV+5Mg6/H8zg/1TlQUtX/oTMUX2veK6lRf JIcvYSGrtDVixRnKQTEdQ2FeFVGwUNIy4FPJ4znwD30mjbDI1K/fVZnhE6+z5AmrQnl8 8h+qG+z0s7aaikYl3QEVQ0BYyMQGqz/tUZGdsvoFHubSWFSj3esRg+eOdUKFoHiIe8XS VJiLbSX1nozaANSuQOTRf+M9WJzyfG4NlnGHku1AhTc0HxOJvTFQ/QCLNqLy/Iy7B9TO BA8A== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2cY8A3AaUH40RJZhmjEcEsvBn0RbEEZ+czo2DIcXPX+ZLZ1UvL xdryElwJb0vvc5tzNcZUxxTqiPIZV57nGNqwG3J8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKIKLSiH2KiP249EAfYk4VHYtCRGwR9h8Q0koYw5LjMuZTx1Lyruodzq/stAt/+nYL5oWmsBfwBB+zIh863Nq5s= X-Received: by 2002:a50:a6d5:: with SMTP id f21-v6mr9236507edc.2.1529281926877; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 17:32:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a50:f5ef:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 17:32:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 17:32:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: alternator To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003566c056edfb2a2" --00000000000003566c056edfb2a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Ahhh EWP's.... PL always had such an unreasonable hate-on for EWP's based on nothing but theory that it drew my attention to them. Long ago on this list there was another Aussie named Leon Promet who was a proponent of them and as such was a target of PL vitriol. So while I am a believer in research and number crunching myself, when I see other using them successfully in other applications, I assume that some of the assumptions we make in our theories may be flawed and at the end of the day a theory holds nothing against real world experience. So I figured enough talking, somebody had better try it, so I did. I'm using all Davies Craig stuff, which is from down under. https://daviescraig.com.au/ I'm currently running with the new electronic controller and 2 pumps. The primary pump is speed controlled by the controller which has a secondary output for switching on of their electric radiator fans. I use this output for the secondary pump since I already have a big-ass fan up front ;) When I previously flew, I also had a secondary pump on a manual switch just as a fail-safe (since PL had predicted I would fall out of the sky into a very special hell). My very first pump did seize once during ground running, so I got another but when I disassembled the first pump for inspection I found a flaw with the seal which was easy to fix, so that was the one I decided to use as a secondary pump. The original pump controller I had was functional but basic, so I decided to update with the new one and I ended up getting one with a pump, so I have a spare pump sitting on the shelf, which I figured is not a bad idea. I also installed an EBP (small electric boost pump) in the heater line to address a problem that was probably unique to my climate and flying style. My instructor at the time was a friend who was flying for NATO over in Afghanistan (2 months in, 2 out) and he had taught me the benefits of their mandatory approaches over there of staying above 10K till above the secure area then doing a hard slip all the way in (too avoid small arms fire). I found this to be ideal up here in the sparsely populated north so that you'll always make the runway (but I recognize that is not acceptable in a crowded traffic environment), so that became my defacto standard approach, weather permitting. However in cold weather during the long slip in with the engine at idle, the EWP controller would almost stop in order to keep the engine at temp (can't do that with a Lyc), just as a thermostat would also close, unfortunately that also stopped giving me cabin heat and I'll tell you it got cold fast! Now I'm used to dealing with winter weather (I embrace it actually, as I love winter sports), but when you are dressed lightly in a cramped cockpit because you have an abundance of clean heat (unlike an exhaust heat muff), then suddenly that heat is gone, you are gonna start looking for solutions. So I bought the Davies Craig EBP which was cheap, small (almost kinda cute really) and easy to put in. Now I'm not gonna beat the EWP drum and say the benefits mean that everybody should put one in, but against PL's most dire predictions, it did work. It solved a few design challenges, while presenting a few other ones. But nothing overwhelming, just like any of the ones that it solved. Now I'll be the first to say that I haven't flown in years, due to so many other factors that are attributed to life in general, but PL may or may not attribute that to the EWP, but H2O cooling really wasn't one of my issues when I was flying. Sure I could only manage to sustain full throttle for 3 minutes while climbing all the way to 10K, (from 2200) before heat would be an issue, but my ducting was far less optimal than I hope it is now. But I think PL just chose to ignore me and pretend that it never happened, which is fine with me as I really don't follow him or his preaching. I hadn't even thought of him in years... did he ever build an airplane???? Or is it just still a theory?? Anyways, I'm happy with my choice, but it's not snake oil that will cure all your ills. However they do work. Check them out. Todd.... electron dependent Todd Bartrim On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Todd, Yep freight from OZ is aust post who are reasonable compared to the > rest. I am on "standard" freight from the US whatever that is. Still have > time to redesign the cushion drive which is already done, now to get it > made ---Sigh> > > Did you not say you have an electric water pump?? If so a few details > please?? I have just taken Paul lamars figures and thought no more about > it -- until last night. 200 litres a minutes (quoted) is way over kill. > THe water would not have time to collect any heat. THat is nearly 1 gallon > US per second!! Why? THe electric voulme is?? I would have thought that > one foot/ second, water speed is more realistic. Am I mad as usual? > > Regards. > > On 6/16/2018 5:03 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote: > > Ernest, great idea. It doesn't matter now for me as it all worked out but > I certainly would've tried that approach if if thought of it. > Neil, I feel your pain. As a Canadian I too am subject to the rise and > fall of the dollar and have learned to play the shipping game. > I am surprised about the shipping time to Oz though as I have bought a few > items from down under and shipping was fast. > My radio is an X-com which came from there and last winter I sent it > back for an update. It was there and back inside of 2 weeks including shop > time. I also have a Davies Craig EWP and last year I wanted to upgrade the > electronic speed controller to their new one so I actually got it on > Australian Ebay new including another pump as a spare at a great price and > it was here in a week. > Ebay.com now has a global shipping program that simplifies exports for > the seller and saves the buyer all the brokerage fees, but it's slow and > usually takes about 2 weeks for shipments out of the US. > Amazon.ca Prime, on the other hand has it figured out. I see that there > is an Amazon.au but it seems that inventory selection is lacking. But have > heart because if it is like the Canadian site, then you'll find that they > will increase the selection exponentially soon. > All part of Jeff Bezos plan for world domination, before Google does it, > or Apple, or Elon Musk...... > > Todd. Frequent shopper in Amazon's aviation department... > > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 17:49 Ernest Christley echristley@att.net, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> When I did it, I went to a local repair shop and asked if they had in >> damaged units that had been replaced. Then I had a free sample to trial >> fit with. >> >> >> On Friday, June 15, 2018 1:38 AM, "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Neil; >> I can't confirm for certain but yes, 2.77" sounds about right. >> After the flywheel and damper drive modifications to increase >> clearance, I still only had 1.43" to squeeze it in there, so that is why I >> also shaved a little off of both sides of the rotor cup and also machined a >> shallow depression into the backside of the psru backplate to allow >> mounting the stator close to the plate and still have clearance for the >> windings. >> This link will show a pic of where I measured the 1.43" >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/K7MLLdvV6QwLYVG89 >> At a little over 1.5" before any modifications to increase that room, >> then you are much better off than I was when i began. >> When I decided to try it, I really had no more than the desire & >> determination to experiment and a "Hairy chested hero" idea that I set down >> $400 at the local Harley shop as a bet that I could make this work, knowing >> also that I was modifying an expensive PSRU, that is no longer available >> for purchase. That gamble paid off for me and I proved that it can be done. >> So I would say that you gotta ask yourself whether this is something >> that you really want in your own installation and if yes then put that >> money down on a single rotor/stator and go to work to see if you can make >> it work for yourself on your own design. >> Then if you are as happy with it as I am with mine, you can figure out >> at what cost you can offer it as an option. >> If I were in your shoes I don't think that I would go to the trouble if >> your only motivation is to provide it as an option for others. But if like >> I said, you want this for yourself as well, then go for it and if >> successful and affordable, then others can have the option of one as well. >> >> Todd >> >> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 19:19 Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Todd, >> >> From what I can gather the ID of the stator is 2.77 >> inches. Does that sound correct? To land a unit from the US or buy >> in OZ , the cost is Pushing $375 AUD or $285 USD. I have a little over >> 1.5 inches to mount in between the drive and the plate. Do you remember >> what space you had? Thanks, Neil. >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline. >> net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> > --00000000000003566c056edfb2a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ahhh EWP's....

PL always had = such an unreasonable hate-on for EWP's based on nothing but theory that= it drew my attention to them. Long ago on this list there was another Auss= ie named Leon Promet who was a proponent of them and as such was a target o= f PL vitriol. So while I am a believer in research and number crunching mys= elf, when I see other using them successfully in other applications, I assu= me that some of the assumptions we make in our theories may be flawed and a= t the end of the day a theory holds nothing against real world experience.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I figured enough talking, somebody had better tr= y it, so I did.
I'm using all Davies Craig stuff, which is fr= om down under.
I'm currently running with the ne= w electronic controller and 2 pumps. The primary pump is speed controlled b= y the controller which has a secondary output for switching on of their ele= ctric radiator fans. I use this output for the secondary pump since I alrea= dy have a big-ass fan up front ;)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When I previously = flew, I also had a secondary pump on a manual switch just as a fail-safe (s= ince PL had predicted I would fall out of the sky into a very special hell)= . My very first pump did seize once during ground running, so I got another= but when I disassembled the first pump for inspection I found a flaw with = the seal which was easy to fix, so that was the one I decided to use as a s= econdary pump.
=C2=A0 The original pump controller I had was func= tional but basic, so I decided to update with the new one and I ended up ge= tting one with a pump, so I have a spare pump sitting on the shelf, which I= figured is not a bad idea.
=C2=A0 I also installed an EBP (small= electric boost pump) in the heater line to address a problem that was prob= ably unique to my climate and flying style.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0My instr= uctor at the time was a friend who was flying for NATO over in Afghanistan = (2 months in, 2 out) and he had taught me the benefits of their mandatory a= pproaches over there of staying above 10K till above the secure area then d= oing a hard slip all the way in (too avoid small arms fire). I found this t= o be ideal up here in the sparsely populated north so that you'll alway= s make the runway (but I recognize that is not acceptable in a crowded traf= fic environment), so that became my defacto standard approach, weather perm= itting.
=C2=A0 However in cold weather during the long slip in wi= th the engine at idle, the EWP controller would almost stop in order to kee= p the engine at temp (can't do that with a Lyc), just as a thermostat w= ould also close, unfortunately that also stopped giving me cabin heat and I= 'll tell you it got cold fast! Now I'm used to dealing with winter = weather (I embrace it actually, as I love winter sports), but when you are = dressed lightly in a cramped cockpit because you have an abundance of clean= heat (unlike an exhaust heat muff), then suddenly that heat is gone, you a= re gonna start looking for solutions. So I bought the Davies Craig EBP whic= h was cheap, small (almost kinda cute really) and easy to put in.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm not gonna beat the EWP drum and say the benefits = mean that everybody should put one in, but against PL's most dire predi= ctions, it did work. It solved a few design challenges, while presenting a = few other ones. But nothing overwhelming, just like any of the ones that it= solved.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'll be the first to say that I hav= en't flown in years, due to so many other factors that are attributed t= o life in general, but PL may or may not attribute that to the EWP, but H2O= cooling really wasn't one of my issues when I was flying. Sure I could= only manage to sustain full throttle for 3 minutes while climbing all the = way to 10K, (from 2200) before heat would be an issue, but my ducting was f= ar less optimal than I hope it is now.
=C2=A0 But I think PL just= chose to ignore me and pretend that it never happened, which is fine with = me as I really don't follow him or his preaching. I hadn't even tho= ught of him in years... did he ever build an airplane???? Or is it just sti= ll a theory??

=C2=A0 Anyways, I'm happy with m= y choice, but it's not snake oil that will cure all your ills. However = they do work. Check them out.

Todd....=C2=A0 =C2= =A0electron dependent

<= div dir=3D"ltr">Todd Bartrim

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Neil Unger = 12348ung@gmail.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Todd,=C2=A0 Yep freight from OZ is aust post who are reasonable compared to the rest.=C2=A0 I am on "standard" freight from= the US whatever that is.=C2=A0 Still have time to redesign the cushion drive which is already done, now to get it made ---Sigh>

Did you not say you have an electric water pump??=C2=A0 If so a few details please??=C2=A0 I have just taken Paul lamars figures and thought no more about it -- until last night.=C2=A0 200 litres a minutes (quoted) is way over kill.=C2=A0 THe water would not have tim= e to collect any heat.=C2=A0 THat is nearly 1 gallon US per second!!=C2= =A0 Why?=C2=A0 THe electric voulme is??=C2=A0 I would have thought that o= ne foot/ second, water speed is more realistic.=C2=A0 Am I mad as usual?=

Regards.


On 6/16/2018 5:03 = PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
Ernest, great idea. It doesn't matter now for me as it all worked out but I certainly would've tried that approach if if thought of it.=C2= =A0
Neil, I feel your pain. As a Canadian I too am subject to the rise and fall of the dollar and have learned to play the shipping game.
I am surprised about the shipping time to Oz though as I have bought a few items from down under and shipping was fast.
=C2=A0 My radio is an X-com which came from there and last winte= r I sent it back for an update. It was there and back inside of 2 weeks including shop time. I also have a Davies Craig EWP and last year I wanted to upgrade the electronic speed controller to their new one so I actually got it on Australian Ebay new including another pump as a spare at a great price and it was here in a week.
=C2=A0 Ebay.com now has a global shipping program that simplifie= s exports for the seller and saves the buyer all the brokerage fees, but it's slow and usually takes about 2 weeks for shipments out of the US.
=C2=A0 Amazon.ca Prime, on the other hand has it figured out. I see that there is an Amazon.au but it seems that inventory selection is lacking. But have heart because if it is like the Canadian site, then you'll find that they will increase the selection exponentially soon.
=C2=A0 All part of Jeff Bezos plan for world domination, before Google does it, or Apple, or Elon Musk......=C2=A0

Todd.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Frequent shopper in Amazon's aviation depa= rtment...

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 17:49 Ernest Christley echristley@att.net= , <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
When I did it, I went to a local repair shop and asked if they had in damaged units that had been replaced.=C2=A0 Then I had a free sample to trial fit with.


On Friday, June 15, 2018 1:38 AM, "Todd Bartrim= bartrim@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


Hi Neil;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can't confirm for certain= but yes, 2.77" sounds about right.
=C2=A0 After the flywheel and damper drive modifications to increase clearance, I still only had 1.43" to squeeze it in there, so that is why I also shaved a little off of both sides of the rotor cup and also machined a shallow depression into the backside of the psru backplate to allow mounting the stator close to the plate and still have clearance for the windings.
This link will show a pic of where I measured the 1.43"
=C2=A0 At a little over 1.5" before any modifications to increase that room, then you are much better off than I was when i began.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When I decided to try it, I rea= lly had no more than the desire & determination to experiment and a "Hairy chested hero&qu= ot; idea that I set down $400 at the local Harley shop as a bet that I could make this work, knowing also that I was modifying an expensive PSRU, that is no longer available for purchase. That gamble paid off for me and I proved that it can be done.
=C2=A0 So I would say that you gotta ask yourself whether this is something that you really want in your own installation and if yes then put that money down on a single rotor/stator and go to work to see if you can make it work for yourself on your own design.
=C2=A0 Then if you are as happy with it as I am with mine, you can figure out at what cost you can offer it as an option.
=C2=A0 If I were in your shoes I don't t= hink that I would go to the trouble if your only motivation is to provide it as an option for others. But if like I said, you want this for yourself as well, then go for it and if successful and affordable, then others can have the option of one as well.

Todd

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 19:19 Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt; wrote:
Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 From wha= t I can gather=C2=A0 the ID of the stator is 2.77 <= br> inches.=C2=A0 Does that sound correct?=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To land a unit from the US or buy
in OZ , the cost is=C2=A0 Pushing $375 AUD = or $285 USD.=C2=A0 I have a little over
1.5 inches to mount in between the drive and the plate. Do you remember
what space you had?=C2=A0 Thanks,=C2=A0 Nei= l.

--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Li= st.html




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