X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=as3wMmRV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=y5+EMkC0WaDxiKfDrEt4UQ==:117 a=wdrU7cV_hWgA:10 a=sSUyiyhxLBkA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=9OsxefAvjnWVv9PLeLQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=5K_Vp_-IKitotPN7g8YA:9 a=0wTlX9cv-8q_hYJu:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: " Lehanover@aol.com" Received: from omr-a010e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.1) with ESMTPS id 10490359 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 06:21:49 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.54; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mbb01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbb01.mx.aol.com [172.26.254.111]) by omr-a010e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 3425338000A5 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 06:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mda04d.mail.aol.com (core-mda04.mail.aol.com [172.27.39.4]) by mtaomg-mbb01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id EAD3238000081 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 06:21:30 -0500 (EST) Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: <3b0043.397c8f1f.47777f3a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 06:21:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Issues To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3b0043.397c8f1f.47777f3a_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.8 sub 2024 X-Originating-IP: [24.164.30.24] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1514546491; bh=jBd6JQQqiPCSmmDWoGrL5SXLzoy3p6T2RdI3MhCLX2k=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=FAdACDoFoROWWXz5uArngecb3f+uyURczvwIfhr6t3b2LidzMdgXdGqdOGV0bZ9fu EFzAkREcVcCuMM+dTtfbOZNCiOS8UQWwvT3vmSZh3ChzQeqqjGSyOsiTbGFavkaBKz 3BWdbrDq0H0tcGgw+2OIunCO4nsgYbnJdWCbza5A= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afe6f5a46253a5524 --part1_3b0043.397c8f1f.47777f3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en I never checked the performance of the radiators. My coolant temp was at= =20 the outlet of the block in the thermostat housing. Oil temp was in the=20 fitting where oil entered the engine. Both front and rear main bearings= were fed=20 from dash 10 lines.=20 =20 Your ducting looks to be more than adequate for coolant. If the tube is fo= r=20 oil cooling it might need some more thought. Oil cooling at full load is= =20 more than one third of the total cooling load. Increasing or decreasing= a=20 power setting will show up in the oil temperature first. Oil temps above= 160=20 cost HP. =20 I would discount results from static testing. =20 Synthetic oils absorb heat more readily and give it up more readily than= =20 conventional oils. So, the setup becomes more effective with just a product change. =20 Synthetics do not turn into other products when overheated. Such as black= snot =20 and road repair sealants, or bits of coal. Apex seal oil should be a brand= =20 name 2 cycle oil like RedLine racing 2 cycle. Racing oils have more anti= =20 scuff compounds and higher film strength than even synthetic street oils.= =20 Nobody drives a Mazda street car around at full throttle and holds it to= =20 5,000 RPM with the brakes. Only airplane people do that. Button it up and= make=20 a few runs up to take off speed. Make movies of the instruments. Then=20 evaluate the cooling. =20 The fellow with the coolant loop picture? Send it to me and I will modify= =20 it to work in this format. No problem. =20 Lynn E. Hanover _lehanover@aol.com_ (mailto:lehanover@aol.com) A=20 JPEG or BITMAP is fine. =20 =20 In a message dated 12/29/2017 2:42:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Hi Lynn Current testing is stationary. I have had it on the apron doing figure 8=E2=80=99s and it seemed to not= overheat.=20 Still to hot though. Once its moving it seems to help with airflow. I=E2=80=99m not going to give up on our setup just yet. I=E2=80=99ve got a few ideas and a bunch of testing and then maybe fly it= and see=20 what it does with some wind in its face. What delta T=E2=80=99s should I expect from the oiling water coolers? Sounds like 15F on the water and a fair bit more on the oil? Cheers Steve Izett > On 29 Dec 2017, at 10:07 am, Subscriber Lehanover@aol.com=20 wrote: >=20 > Are these cooling tests being done at speed, say 60 to 70 MPH? Or, =20 stationary? It only needs to cool long enough to get to the runway. Put= some=20 tufts on wires right behind the prop and long enough to get into the =20 ducting. I bet almost nothing flows into the ducting. Mount a pancake fan= behind=20 the radiator to cool on the ground. Some of the spiral flow from the prop= =20 will defeat the straight sides of the ducting. Ram air at flying speed is= =20 completely different. Most added temperature shows up in the oil with high= =20 power settings. The racer cooling at low speed is just not adequate. But= once =20 you hit the first straight and go over 100 MPH > (top speed 146) the cooling is great. Make one change at a time. Make= it=20 a big change. Record the instruments on video. Just like running the dyno= .=20 Run a bit rich on the ground. Say 1600 degrees or less EGT. This will hel= p=20 a bit. > Lynn E. Hanover > =20 > In a message dated 12/28/2017 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > Steve >=20 > I suspect it=E2=80=99s #2. Steve B=E2=80=99s email has a wealth of info= rmation and=20 points to airflow. To prove it layup a quick but reasonable shaped duct= and=20 test it with the cowl off. I would start with a 28 sq or large inlet. 30%= of=20 the core face would be a good place to start testing.=20 > =20 > I=E2=80=99ve only seen Tracy takeoff in the RV8 once. But he was not usi= ng =20 anywhere near full throttle. He did a lot of work on the inlets but I=E2= =80=99m not sure=20 he can use all 300HP in the summer. =20 >=20 > Bobby > =20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > > On Dec 28, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = =20 wrote: > >=20 > > Hi Guys > >=20 > > Thanks for the replies > >=20 > > Our water inlet is small (Standard Glasair) - modelled of Tracy=E2=80= =99s RV8=20 20b =20 > > I understood he had a round right cheek inlet of 5.25=E2=80=9D giving= him 22=20 in^2 to his water rad for 300hp in Florida temps.=20 > > For the two rotor -> 2/3rd of 22 is <15. We have >16 for <200hp > >=20 > > My concern is the delta T=E2=80=99s. > > Yesterday at 1800rpm I was seeing 12F across oil and 6F across the=20 water. Previously I=E2=80=99d seen this as high as 18F and 9F not sure wh= y so low=20 yesterday. > > What do others see on the ground at idle? > > Does anyone have good pressure data on the ground. Idle and power=20 settings? > >=20 > > Are these low due to: > > 1. Water flow due to cooling system design or air trapped. > > 2. Air flow due to small inlet, compounded by a prop that doesn=E2=80= =99t have=20 much blade near the spinner.=20 > > =20 > > I=E2=80=99ll look at some further baffling of the Rad to exit but cant= see=20 this helping at idle air speeds unless I duct the exit low pressure direct= to=20 the back of the core. > >=20 > > I=E2=80=99ll send further photos > > Thanks > > Steve > >=20 > > Steve<3.JPG> > > >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --part1_3b0043.397c8f1f.47777f3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
I never checked the performance of the radiators. My coolant temp was= at=20 the outlet of the block in the thermostat housing. Oil temp was in the fit= ting=20 where oil entered the engine. Both front and rear main bearings were fed= from=20 dash 10 lines.
 
Your ducting looks to be more than adequate for coolant. If the tube= is for=20 oil cooling it might need some more thought. Oil cooling at full load is= more=20 than one third of the total cooling load. Increasing or decreasing a= power=20 setting will show up in the oil temperature first. Oil temps above 160 cos= t=20 HP.
 
  I would discount results from static testing.
 
 Synthetic oils absorb heat more readily and give it up more rea= dily=20 than conventional
oils. So, the setup becomes more effective with just a product change= .=20 Synthetics do not turn into other products when overheated. Such as black= snot=20 and road repair sealants, or bits of coal. Apex seal oil should be a brand= name=20 2 cycle oil like RedLine racing 2 cycle. Racing oils have more anti scuff= =20 compounds and higher film strength than even synthetic street oils. = Nobody=20 drives a Mazda street car around at full throttle and holds it to 5,000 RP= M with=20 the brakes. Only airplane people do that. Button it up and make a few runs= up to=20 take off speed. Make movies of the instruments. Then evaluate the cooling.=
 
The fellow with the coolant loop picture? Send it to me and I will mo= dify=20 it to work in this format. No problem.
 
Lynn E. Hanover      lehanover@aol.com  A JPEG or BI= TMAP is=20 fine.
 
In a message dated 12/29/2017 2:42:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Hi=20 Lynn
Current testing is stationary.

I have had it on the apron= doing=20 figure 8=E2=80=99s and it seemed to not overheat.
Still to hot thoug= h.

Once=20 its moving it seems to help with airflow.

I=E2=80=99m not going= to give up on=20 our setup just yet.
I=E2=80=99ve got a few ideas and a bunch of testi= ng and then=20 maybe fly it and see what it does with some wind in its face.

Wha= t=20 delta T=E2=80=99s should I expect from the oiling water coolers?
Soun= ds like 15F on=20 the water and a fair bit more on the oil?

Cheers

Steve=20 Izett



> On 29 Dec 2017, at 10:07 am, Subscriber=20 Lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >=20 Are these cooling tests being done at speed, say 60 to 70 MPH? Or,=20 stationary?  It only needs to cool long enough to get to the runway= . Put=20 some tufts on wires right behind the prop and long enough to get into th= e=20 ducting. I bet almost nothing flows into the ducting. Mount a pancake fa= n=20 behind the radiator to cool on the ground. Some of the spiral flow from= the=20 prop will defeat the straight sides of the ducting. Ram air at flying sp= eed is=20 completely different. Most added temperature shows up in the oil with hi= gh=20 power settings. The racer cooling at low speed is just not adequate. But= once=20 you hit the first straight and go over 100 MPH
> (top speed 146)= the=20 cooling is great. Make one change at a time. Make it a big change. Recor= d the=20 instruments on video. Just like running the dyno. Run a bit rich on the= =20 ground. Say 1600 degrees or less EGT. This will help a bit.
> Lynn= E.=20 Hanover
> 
> In a message dated 12/28/2017 7:55:29 P.M= .=20 Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
>=20 Steve
>
> I suspect it=E2=80=99s #2. Steve B=E2=80=99s emai= l has a wealth of=20 information and points to airflow. To prove it layup a quick but reasona= ble=20 shaped duct and test it with the cowl off. I would start with a 28 sq or= large=20 inlet. 30% of the core face would be a good place to start testing.
= >=20
> I=E2=80=99ve only seen Tracy takeoff in the RV8 once. But he wa= s not using=20 anywhere near full throttle. He did a lot of work on the inlets but I=E2= =80=99m not=20 sure he can use all 300HP in the summer. 
>
> Bobby>=20
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On De= c 28,=20 2017, at 5:13 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi= =20 Guys
> >
> > Thanks for the replies
> >
= >=20 > Our water inlet is small (Standard Glasair) - modelled of Tracy=E2= =80=99s RV8 20b=20
> > I understood he had a round right cheek inlet of 5.25=E2= =80=9D giving=20 him 22 in^2 to his water rad for 300hp in Florida temps.
> >= For the=20 two rotor -> 2/3rd of 22 is <15. We have >16 for <200hp
&= gt;=20 >
> > My concern is the delta T=E2=80=99s.
> > Yes= terday at=20 1800rpm I was seeing 12F across oil and 6F across the water. Previously= I=E2=80=99d=20 seen this as high as 18F and 9F not sure why so low yesterday.
>= >=20 What do others see on the ground at idle?
> > Does anyone have= good=20 pressure data on the ground. Idle and power settings?
> >
&= gt;=20 > Are these low due to:
> > 1. Water flow due to cooling sys= tem=20 design or air trapped.
> > 2. Air flow due to small inlet, comp= ounded=20 by a prop that doesn=E2=80=99t have much blade near the spinner.
>= ; >=20
> > I=E2=80=99ll look at some further baffling of the Rad to= exit but cant=20 see this helping at idle air speeds unless I duct the exit low pressure= direct=20 to the back of the core.
> >
> > I=E2=80=99ll send fu= rther=20 photos
> > Thanks
> > Steve
> >
> >= =20 Steve<3.JPG>
> > <Cowl exit.jpg>
>
>= =20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and= =20 UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


--=
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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