X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=as3wMmRV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=OEVJYw/obVdrmk2EYfkxnA==:117 a=EbpLNrCo30aDxQDSuejDwg==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=yxWDa_L5YogA:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=mTMJUbzsQVsjklFeJuIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=iWVTWq79L9aGv-BS1c0A:9 a=ZLkerJ0kIhGQz_7r:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Christian christamarmc@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf0-f182.google.com ([209.85.192.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.1) with ESMTPS id 10490201 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 04:49:53 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.182; envelope-from=christamarmc@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf0-f182.google.com with SMTP id p84so21968655pfd.3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:49:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:subject:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=sYbqaJMQ/CBsh3l8ENyaxmXhgQbHH/kj8kwGo8q34qM=; b=g+Es84C2DLQTZEj3ZEbasNhArrDUfsNg5thsyV3lmu5c9MPqWLXLZtuqugAvaxdHet XEFGhqxyjvTNSShQvbKdlvgekOZiBoeOiRhk9LF7y7nrKkMgRyO+SFq26gOxgDzXlzkc E+AjbUpXSOchrwoDxhVekwtRob8u/6ZNizx94wL8vNhjfoENVWFr33DYW7dxrEtvOCl/ 2cBLJVA5QjQn0qMDZnMNTVQZYOyBse+we012K4TFw0VP8ptj0avXJ1D8ToVef+jAGTCs xXQr3YNF9muompfDMyYIXBZlJ8E+hbu7PNa2smupIlhM2kj8lCmGDiBHqI8ykv/QZoMX lwXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date :subject:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=sYbqaJMQ/CBsh3l8ENyaxmXhgQbHH/kj8kwGo8q34qM=; b=bSgl1/q/XhfblVCtKFgVBDOxTi4SFUIzgVhm/J6sb5KJfOrOHc109LIrDFUq4nFTbt DOXjbwM4URrIi84B2w4zNL4w6kYLrtxTUzACUcoT4/q1eP52+30GEUiqgsSDLzl03DmN Uqzy/t3zSIW6mvCKVMTpUKIIvO8oe+ThM+Glo9fGfSl64RoXUPi79lhzBptYLktyxoUr gpSQGarE5m5kAWV6JeHlxF6/TJEG54reaczbjVfBxh2/KqARJWGj+sDsr/NnJKeBgCFj iXY6OAgSTGow4zC1X+ZWOEougp9jRV7BctAWD5vbWW46XhNG9wLeqTwKVGpvuhFf14rH mQYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKM+EsOfi3Kca+EvFXb9EbHcaEFen7FMXlaIhzA8ackY2QCC5oQ nOCjZMSg2qY34ujE7x0yx91qpaHc X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotZbn/EC3xluw6ayiJhQgafZDOAv/ytyGBnqFoP+vNDbH2nCFd5zwbBliXrzwcWl3PcvtbCZg== X-Received: by 10.99.175.88 with SMTP id s24mr31324591pgo.222.1514540976119; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:49:36 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.174] (pa49-197-116-247.pa.qld.optusnet.com.au. [49.197.116.247]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm76666063pff.122.2017.12.29.01.49.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:49:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-04B9DAA6-EB76-41EF-875B-5374D70ED840 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:49:30 +1000 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Issues Message-Id: <337685FA-451E-4CEA-A459-2214EF51E717@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPad Mail (14G60) --Apple-Mail-04B9DAA6-EB76-41EF-875B-5374D70ED840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd have to agree, my renises will run hot on the ground sometimes up to 105= c on a hot day waiting to line up, as soon as airborne she comes back down t= o 92 in cruise, havnt had an issue yet. Rv7=20 Renises Christian Sent from my iPad > On 29 Dec 2017, at 12:49 pm, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > +1 (for what that's worth...) >=20 > IIRC, Tracy has mentioned several times that he doesn't worry too much abo= ut ground cooling, for the reasons Lynn just mentioned. 'If it cools on the g= round, it'll be draggy in the air.' >=20 > Anyone calculated how much the radiated heat from the engine block affects= radiator efficiency, when the face of the rad can 'see' the block? >=20 > Charlie >=20 >> On 12/28/2017 8:07 PM, Subscriber Lehanover@aol.com wrote: >> Are these cooling tests being done at speed, say 60 to 70 MPH? Or, statio= nary? It only needs to cool long enough to get to the runway. Put some tuft= s on wires right behind the prop and long enough to get into the ducting. I b= et almost nothing flows into the ducting. Mount a pancake fan behind the rad= iator to cool on the ground. Some of the spiral flow from the prop will defe= at the straight sides of the ducting. Ram air at flying speed is completely d= ifferent. Most added temperature shows up in the oil with high power setting= s. The racer cooling at low speed is just not adequate. But once you hit the= first straight and go over 100 MPH >> (top speed 146) the cooling is great. Make one change at a time. Make it a= big change. Record the instruments on video. Just like running the dyno. Ru= n a bit rich on the ground. Say 1600 degrees or less EGT. This will help a b= it. >> Lynn E. Hanover >> =20 >> In a message dated 12/28/2017 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net writes: >> Steve >>=20 >> I suspect it=E2=80=99s #2. Steve B=E2=80=99s email has a wealth of inform= ation and points to airflow. To prove it layup a quick but reasonable shaped= duct and test it with the cowl off. I would start with a 28 sq or large inl= et. 30% of the core face would be a good place to start testing.=20 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve only seen Tracy takeoff in the RV8 once. But he was not usin= g anywhere near full throttle. He did a lot of work on the inlets but I=E2=80= =99m not sure he can use all 300HP in the summer. =20 >>=20 >> Bobby >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> > On Dec 28, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >> >=20 >> > Hi Guys >> >=20 >> > Thanks for the replies >> >=20 >> > Our water inlet is small (Standard Glasair) - modelled of Tracy=E2=80=99= s RV8 20b=20 >> > I understood he had a round right cheek inlet of 5.25=E2=80=9D giving h= im 22 in^2 to his water rad for 300hp in Florida temps.=20 >> > For the two rotor -> 2/3rd of 22 is <15. We have >16 for <200hp >> >=20 >> > My concern is the delta T=E2=80=99s. >> > Yesterday at 1800rpm I was seeing 12F across oil and 6F across the wate= r. Previously I=E2=80=99d seen this as high as 18F and 9F not sure why so lo= w yesterday. >> > What do others see on the ground at idle? >> > Does anyone have good pressure data on the ground. Idle and power setti= ngs? >> >=20 >> > Are these low due to: >> > 1. Water flow due to cooling system design or air trapped. >> > 2. Air flow due to small inlet, compounded by a prop that doesn=E2=80=99= t have much blade near the spinner.=20 >> >=20 >> > I=E2=80=99ll look at some further baffling of the Rad to exit but cant s= ee this helping at idle air speeds unless I duct the exit low pressure direc= t to the back of the core. >> >=20 >> > I=E2=80=99ll send further photos >> > Thanks >> > Steve >> >=20 >> > Steve<3.JPG> >> > >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html >=20 >=20 > Virus-free. www.avast.com --Apple-Mail-04B9DAA6-EB76-41EF-875B-5374D70ED840 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd have to agree, my renises will run= hot on the ground sometimes up to 105c on a hot day waiting to line up, as s= oon as airborne she comes back down to 92 in cruise, havnt had an issue yet.=
Rv7 
Renises
Christian

Sent fro= m my iPad

On 29 Dec 2017, at 12:49 pm, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= br>
=20 =20 =20
+1 (for what that's worth...)

IIRC, Tracy has mentioned several times that he doesn't worry too much about ground cooling, for the reasons Lynn just mentioned. 'If it cools on the ground, it'll be draggy in the air.'

Anyone calculated how much the radiated heat from the engine block affects radiator efficiency, when the face of the rad can 'see' the block?

Charlie

On 12/28/2017 8:07 PM, Subscriber Lehanover@aol.com wrote:
Are these cooling tests being done at speed, say 60 to 70 MPH? Or, stationary?  It only needs to cool long enough to ge= t to the runway. Put some tufts on wires right behind the prop and long enough to get into the ducting. I bet almost nothing flows into the ducting. Mount a pancake fan behind the radiator to cool on the ground. Some of the spiral flow from the prop will defeat the straight sides of the ducting. Ram air at flying speed is completely different. Most added temperature shows up in the oil with high power settings. The racer cooling at low speed is just not adequate. But once you hit the first straight and go over 100 MPH
(top speed 146) the cooling is great. Make one change at a time. Make it a big change. Record the instruments on video. Just like running the dyno. Run a bit rich on the ground. Say 1600 degrees or less EGT. This will help a bit.
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 12/28/2017 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Steve=

I suspect it=E2=80=99s #2. Steve B=E2=80=99s email has a wealt= h of information and points to airflow. To prove it layup a quick but reasonable shaped duct and test it with the cowl off. I would start with a 28 sq or large inlet. 30% of the core face would be a good place to start testing.

I=E2=80=99ve only seen Tracy takeoff in the RV8 once. But he w= as not using anywhere near full throttle. He did a lot of work on the inlets but I=E2=80=99m not sure he can use all 300= HP in the summer. 

Bobby



Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 28, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Thanks for the replies
>
> Our water inlet is small (Standard Glasair) - modelled of Tracy=E2=80=99s RV8 20b
> I understood he had a round right cheek inlet of 5.25=E2=80=9D giving him 22 in^2 to his water rad for 300hp in= Florida temps.
> For the two rotor -> 2/3rd of 22 is <15. We have >16 for <200hp
>
> My concern is the delta T=E2=80=99s.
> Yesterday at 1800rpm I was seeing 12F across oil and 6F across the water. Previously I=E2=80=99d seen this as high a= s 18F and 9F not sure why so low yesterday.
> What do others see on the ground at idle?
> Does anyone have good pressure data on the ground. Idle and power settings?
>
> Are these low due to:
> 1. Water flow due to cooling system design or air trapped.
> 2. Air flow due to small inlet, compounded by a prop that doesn=E2=80=99t have much blade near the spinner.
>
> I=E2=80=99ll look at some further baffling of the Rad to e= xit but cant see this helping at idle air speeds unless I duct the exit low pressure direct to the back of the core.
>
> I=E2=80=99ll send further photos
> Thanks
> Steve
>
> Steve<3.JPG>
> <Cowl exit.jpg>

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