From: "Todd Bartrim" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 02:37:45 -0700
Message-ID: <CALYfWBvSwvx3Z_cOGULYcoP11_MhhC-sgp3S8AYm+OHUu0O39w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] fuel system
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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It's been an eventful few days. No disrespect intended to those of you
suffering through a hurricane. I hope everybody comes through it ok.
 First Steve;
   That's a very good observation and I'm a little ashamed I overlooked the
total fuel flow. I have the same data sheet and when I saw 15 gph my
initial thought was " it better not be that much or I can't afford to fly
it!". Seriously though, I've only ever measured fuel flow with the EM2,
which I'm sure is a pretty accurate way to measure fuel consumption but
that doesn't account for total fuel flow through the system. I kinda feel
stupid that I didn't think of it. But that's nothing compared to the stupid
thing I'll tell you about later.
But that's why I put this out there for peer review.
OK, so now that it's in there and seems to be working where do I go now.
Physically, this filter cartridge is far larger than the old in-line
filters that were meant for a HP fuel injection system, so I would assume
that it also has a larger filter area. So I think maybe you're right about
that flow limit being with regards to it's ability to separate water. So if
I exceed this limit where does it leave me? Does it matter much?
Honestly water in fuel isn't really much of a problem. The only time I've
had to deal with it was when I was repairing a friends snowmobile and oh
yeah that time when I was younger and not quite as good as I thought I was
and sunk my own sled while crossing a long stretch of open water. I have
seen how ice crystals can plug up filters, but it's generally not a problem.
 Long ago I bought one of these Mr. Funnels (size F-15)
http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html for use in the airplane and
every drop of fuel that's ever gone into that airplane has gone through
that funnel (if only cause it cost me $100 and I wanted to get my moneys
worth). I've also used that funnel on occasion with snowmobile fuel but not
every time. As a testament to how good they are, the aforementioned buddy's
sled had close to a gallon of water in his fuel tank. We drained it into a
fuel can then transferred it to another through the funnel. The water line
in the funnel kept building until the funnel was getting full but not able
to pass much more fuel. we dumped the water twice. Then we transferred it
back again and had no water. We then put that fuel back in his sled and it
ran well (after we cleaned the carbs). So if you're concerned about water
in your fuel get one of them.
   So anyways back to airplanes. I'm not really worried about water, I just
thought it was a nice feature. Nice enough that I also ordered the water
detector. So is that the limiting factor on the fuel flow of this unit? I'm
willing to bet that you're right. 2 micron, again I didn't consider ice
crystals. Yes I know it's probably more than I need, but without giving it
a lot of thought I figured it wouldn't hurt. But maybe it will. I might
consider the R12T with a 10 micron rating or even the R12P/30 micron.
Thanks for bringing this up.

   Next. My concern about isolating fuel tanks was somewhat validated today
when I had a significant leak from one of the tanks. Or so I thought. It
seems like it is actually in the feed tubing from one of the outboard
tanks, somewhere near the wing root. The wing will have to come off to find
and repair it. This is all one continuous piece of aluminum tubing, so I'm
quite curious as to what I'll find. I do recall that it was a challenge to
do this tubing when I built these tanks, but that was so long ago I don't
remember all the details so I'm not sure what I'll find. It must be
significant because I couldn't even draw fuel from this tank, only air,
while it was raining under the wing. This really sucks, but if I was in the
air and fuel from other tanks was having to be routed through this tank,
well that would just be a real bad day :-(

   Next. One of the Gems fuel sensors wasn't showing empty so I reached in
to check it and found as I suspected that it was inline with the dihedral
of the wing, meaning that it was downhill and so a little fuel was
remaining against the sensor, enough to make it think it was still immersed
in fuel (well actually it was). In flight this probably wouldn't be a
problem, but in case I was in perfectly level flight maybe it would? in any
event I pulled the access cover (a landing light, don't ask, another long
explanation) and slightly bent the connecting tube up slightly and it was
reading empty. But I gave it one more tweak... and it broke off in my hand!
****!!??##??
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVKeCxddQjVN4GTX2
Now these are rated for petrochemical use so am I wrong to assume that
means gasoline? But the part that broke off was not exposed to gasoline. I
was reaching in there blind but I was certain that I was holding onto the
aluminum tee while I was tweaking it, but maybe not. I guess the good news
is if this happened in flight it would not have leaked any fuel as the line
is still sealed well. But it is in the "wet" condition with light
scattering and not being reflected through the prism to the detector. So
this would not give me an empty tank alarm. But it's not my only one as the
pump inlets also have an optical sensor with audible alarm. So anyways, I
figured I'd better mention it, incase others were considering using these.
I still think they are a great little sensor, but nothings perfect. So
beware.

   So now unrelated to rotary aviation or fuel supply... I got an odd
warning on the display of my X-Com radio today and it seems that it wants
to take an Australian vacation without me! Seriously though, it gave me a
"PLL fail" warning that wasn't in the manual or online so I emailed them
not expecting a reply till after labour day, but shortly after I got a
reply saying it is an internal error and to send it in for repair. The
warning is now gone and I cant duplicate it. With winter coming, I'd like
to not be sitting around while my radio goes down under to enjoy their
spring sun. On the X-Com website they have this quote from Leonardo Da
Vinci, "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your
eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to
return". So I told him I've been walking the earth with my skyward for the
last 12 years, so unless failure is imminent i'd rather not send it back to
the other side of this rock without me accompanying it.

  Ok, now for the stupid human tricks part of the show....
As everything seemed to be inline (earlier in the day, before all this
other s*#!) for a return to flight I figured it was a good time to do a new
weight & balance. But my driveway has a slight slope to it. Close to the
garage it is level laterally, so hey a few pieces of plywood and a shallow
ramp and I'll get her perfectly level. I used a level and carefully
measured and cut all the appropriate pieces. I have 5 electronic 440#
scales so I had to use a bridge over 2 for each of the mains anyways. It
all looked good. The problem with these electronic scales is that they time
out and shut off. and they tare when they turn on. So I had to turn on all
the scales then quickly push the airplane on and take the measurements (had
my phone camera ready to just take a quick shot of each). Here's the stupid
part.... it took more effort than I expect to push it onto the scales so
when I really put my shoulder into it I pushed it right off the other end.
The carnage can be seen here
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7EFw4Ftj6NSRSbbP2
Stupid is as stupid does!  Horizontal stabilizer needs to be partially
rebuilt and the trim tab needs to be replaced. This will put me back a
little. I think next time I'll put a stop block on the back side of those
scale blocks.... or wait till I get to the airport and find some more level
ground.

  Now with all the bad news I am happy to report that after I'd pumped all
the tanks dry by taking off one line from my fuel header and connecting it
to another hose into a fuel can, I then found less than a tablespoon of
fuel in each of the tanks.The wingtip tanks were especially difficult to
ensure that they would draw from the lowest point, but it seems like I got
it right, so I'll not be carrying unusable fuel.

Todd..........   I think I'll go fishing tomorrow


Todd Bartrim

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Steven W. Boese <flyrotary@lancaironline.net
> wrote:

> Todd,
>
>
> The fuel filter and water separator that you specify has a max flow rate
> spec of 15 gph (data sheet is attached).  The fuel flow required by the
> engine would be more than that at times.  Since you are returning the
> regulator bypass to the inlet of the unit, the flow rate through it would
> always be more than the rating.  The unit must be capable of flowing more
> than the rating since it is working in your system.  It is possible that
> the flow limit is based on the unit's inability to separate water at higher
> flow rates.  The filter media is described as not allowing water to pass
> through it.  Does the media become impermeable to fuel if water is trapped
> on it due to the high flow rate?
>
>
> The filter cartridge you specify has a 2 micron particle rating.  While
> this is appropriate for the diesel application that the unit was designed
> for, this seems much smaller than necessary for your application.  In
> subfreezing temperatures, I have observed fine suspended crystals when
> sumping the tanks. They are most likely ice since they disappear at warmer
> temperatures although no liquid water has been recovered when sumping the
> tanks.  Y'all who've never seen a snowflake would not run into this (sorry
> Charlie). The crystals have not caused any  problems in my system that I am
> aware of.  It is possible that they may be trapped by the fine filter media
> that you are using.  Whether or not this might be a problem remains to be
> seen.
>
>
> The above concerns may be worth considering if you have not already
> resolved them to your satisfaction.
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
> Thank you for your explanation of the use of the fuel flow transducer in
> the fuel return line.  I have a single fuel flow transducer in the line
> leading to the dead headed fuel rail for fuel flow and fuel remaining
> purposes.  At the condition inspection, I temporarily attach a fuel line
> from the fuel rail to a tank filler opening allowing a check on the fuel
> system condition using that fuel flow transducer in conjunction with the
> fuel pressure reading.  Your system allows continuous monitoring while
> eliminating the need to install temporary plumbing to check the fuel system
> health.
>
>
> Steve Boese
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:
> 81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">It&#39;s been an eventful few days. No disrespect intended=
 to those of you suffering through a hurricane. I hope everybody comes thro=
ugh it ok.<div>=C2=A0First Steve;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0That&#39;s a very =
good observation and I&#39;m a little ashamed I overlooked the total fuel f=
low. I have the same data sheet and when I saw 15 gph my initial thought wa=
s &quot; it better not be that much or I can&#39;t afford to fly it!&quot;.=
 Seriously though, I&#39;ve only ever measured fuel flow with the EM2, whic=
h I&#39;m sure is a pretty accurate way to measure fuel consumption but tha=
t doesn&#39;t account for total fuel flow through the system. I kinda feel =
stupid that I didn&#39;t think of it. But that&#39;s nothing compared to th=
e stupid thing I&#39;ll tell you about later.</div><div>But that&#39;s why =
I put this out there for peer review.=C2=A0</div><div>OK, so now that it=
9;s in there and seems to be working where do I go now. Physically, this fi=
lter cartridge is far larger than the old in-line filters that were meant f=
or a HP fuel injection system, so I would assume that it also has a larger =
filter area. So I think maybe you&#39;re right about that flow limit being =
with regards to it&#39;s ability to separate water. So if I exceed this lim=
it where does it leave me? Does it matter much?</div><div>Honestly water in=
 fuel isn&#39;t really much of a problem. The only time I&#39;ve had to dea=
l with it was when I was repairing a friends snowmobile and oh yeah that ti=
me when I was younger and not quite as good as I thought I was and sunk my =
own sled while crossing a long stretch of open water. I have seen how ice c=
rystals can plug up filters, but it&#39;s generally not a problem.</div><di=
v>=C2=A0Long ago I bought one of these Mr. Funnels (size F-15)=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html">http://www.mrfunnel.com/M=
r._Funnel/Home.html</a> for use in the airplane and every drop of fuel that=
&#39;s ever gone into that airplane has gone through that funnel (if only c=
ause it cost me $100 and I wanted to get my moneys worth). I&#39;ve also us=
ed that funnel on occasion with snowmobile fuel but not every time. As a te=
stament to how good they are, the aforementioned buddy&#39;s sled had close=
 to a gallon of water in his fuel tank. We drained it into a fuel can then =
transferred it to another through the funnel. The water line in the funnel =
kept building until the funnel was getting full but not able to pass much m=
ore fuel. we dumped the water twice. Then we transferred it back again and =
had no water. We then put that fuel back in his sled and it ran well (after=
 we cleaned the carbs). So if you&#39;re concerned about water in your fuel=
 get one of them.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0So anyways back to airplanes. I=
9;m not really worried about water, I just thought it was a nice feature. N=
ice enough that I also ordered the water detector. So is that the limiting =
factor on the fuel flow of this unit? I&#39;m willing to bet that you&#39;r=
e right. 2 micron, again I didn&#39;t consider ice crystals. Yes I know it&=
#39;s probably more than I need, but without giving it a lot of thought I f=
igured it wouldn&#39;t hurt. But maybe it will. I might consider the R12T w=
ith a 10 micron rating or even the R12P/30 micron.</div><div>Thanks for bri=
nging this up.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Next. My concern about=
 isolating fuel tanks was somewhat validated today when I had a significant=
 leak from one of the tanks. Or so I thought. It seems like it is actually =
in the feed tubing from one of the outboard tanks, somewhere near the wing =
root. The wing will have to come off to find and repair it. This is all one=
 continuous piece of aluminum tubing, so I&#39;m quite curious as to what I=
&#39;ll find. I do recall that it was a challenge to do this tubing when I =
built these tanks, but that was so long ago I don&#39;t remember all the de=
tails so I&#39;m not sure what I&#39;ll find. It must be significant becaus=
e I couldn&#39;t even draw fuel from this tank, only air, while it was rain=
ing under the wing. This really sucks, but if I was in the air and fuel fro=
m other tanks was having to be routed through this tank, well that would ju=
st be a real bad day :-(</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Next. One of=
 the Gems fuel sensors wasn&#39;t showing empty so I reached in to check it=
 and found as I suspected that it was inline with the dihedral of the wing,=
 meaning that it was downhill and so a little fuel was remaining against th=
e sensor, enough to make it think it was still immersed in fuel (well actua=
lly it was). In flight this probably wouldn&#39;t be a problem, but in case=
 I was in perfectly level flight maybe it would? in any event I pulled the =
access cover (a landing light, don&#39;t ask, another long explanation) and=
 slightly bent the connecting tube up slightly and it was reading empty. Bu=
t I gave it one more tweak... and it broke off in my hand! ****!!??##??=C2=
=A0</div><div><a href=3D"https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVKeCxddQjVN4GTX2">https=
://photos.app.goo.gl/TVKeCxddQjVN4GTX2</a>=C2=A0</div><div>Now these are ra=
ted for petrochemical use so am I wrong to assume that means gasoline? But =
the part that broke off was not exposed to gasoline. I was reaching in ther=
e blind but I was certain that I was holding onto the aluminum tee while I =
was tweaking it, but maybe not. I guess the good news is if this happened i=
n flight it would not have leaked any fuel as the line is still sealed well=
. But it is in the &quot;wet&quot; condition with light scattering and not =
being reflected through the prism to the detector. So this would not give m=
e an empty tank alarm. But it&#39;s not my only one as the pump inlets also=
 have an optical sensor with audible alarm. So anyways, I figured I&#39;d b=
etter mention it, incase others were considering using these. I still think=
 they are a great little sensor, but nothings perfect. So beware.</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0So now unrelated to rotary avia=
tion or fuel supply... I got an odd warning on the display of my X-Com radi=
o today and it seems that it wants to take an Australian vacation without m=
e! Seriously though, it gave me a &quot;PLL fail&quot; warning that wasn=
9;t in the manual or online so I emailed them not expecting a reply till af=
ter labour day, but shortly after I got a reply saying it is an internal er=
ror and to send it in for repair. The warning is now gone and I cant duplic=
ate it. With winter coming, I&#39;d like to not be sitting around while my =
radio goes down under to enjoy their spring sun. On the X-Com website they =
have this quote from Leonardo Da Vinci, &quot;<font color=3D"#333333" face=
=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">For once you have tasted =
flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there yo=
u have been and there you will long to return&quot;. So I told him I&#39;ve=
 been walking the earth with my skyward for the last 12 years, so unless fa=
ilure is imminent i&#39;d rather not send it back to the other side of this=
 rock without me accompanying=C2=A0it.</font></div><div><font color=3D"#333=
333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div=
><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, san=
s-serif">=C2=A0 Ok, now for the stupid human tricks part of the show....</f=
ont></div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif">As everything seemed to be inline (earlier in the day, be=
fore all this other s*#!) for a return=C2=A0to flight I figured it was a go=
od time to do a new weight &amp; balance. But my driveway has a slight slop=
e to it. Close to the garage=C2=A0it is level laterally, so hey a few piece=
s=C2=A0of plywood and a shallow ramp and I&#39;ll get her perfectly level. =
I used a level and carefully measured and cut all the appropriate pieces. I=
 have 5 electronic=C2=A0440# scales so I had to use a bridge over 2 for eac=
h of the mains anyways. It all looked good. The problem with these electron=
ic=C2=A0scales=C2=A0is that they time out and shut off. and they tare when =
they turn on. So I had to turn on all the scales then quickly push the airp=
lane on and take the measurements=C2=A0(had my phone camera ready to just t=
ake a quick shot of each). Here&#39;s the stupid part.... it took more effo=
rt than I expect to push it onto the scales so when I really put my shoulde=
r into it I pushed it right off the other end. The carnage can be seen here=
=C2=A0</font></div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Hel=
vetica, Arial, sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://photos.app.goo.gl/7EFw4Ftj6NS=
RSbbP2">https://photos.app.goo.gl/7EFw4Ftj6NSRSbbP2</a></font></div><div><f=
ont color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"=
>Stupid is as stupid does!=C2=A0 Horizontal stabilizer needs to be partiall=
y rebuilt and the trim tab needs to be replaced. This will put me back a li=
ttle. I think next time I&#39;ll put a stop block on the back side of those=
 scale blocks.... or wait till I get to the airport and find some more leve=
l ground.</font></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Now with all the bad news =
I am happy to report that after I&#39;d pumped all the tanks dry by taking =
off one line from my fuel header and connecting it to another hose into a f=
uel can, I then found less than a tablespoon of fuel in each of the tanks.T=
he wingtip tanks were especially difficult to ensure that they would draw f=
rom the lowest point, but it seems like I got it right, so I&#39;ll not be =
carrying unusable fuel.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd.......... =C2=A0 I th=
ink I&#39;ll go fishing tomorrow</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smart=
mail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Todd Bartrim</div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Steven W. Bo=
ese <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_6180044845579232641divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr">
<p>Todd,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The fuel filter and water separator that you specify has a max flow rate=
 spec of 15 gph (data sheet is attached).=C2=A0 The fuel flow required by t=
he engine would be more than that at times.=C2=A0 Since you are returning t=
he regulator bypass to the inlet of the unit,
 the flow rate through it would always be more than the rating.=C2=A0 The u=
nit must be capable of flowing more than the rating since it is working in =
your system.=C2=A0 It is possible that the flow limit is based on the unit&=
#39;s inability to separate water at higher flow
 rates.=C2=A0 The filter media is described as not allowing water to pass t=
hrough it.=C2=A0 Does the media become impermeable to fuel if water is trap=
ped on it due to the high flow rate?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The filter cartridge you specify has a 2 micron particle rating.=C2=A0 W=
hile this is appropriate for the diesel application that the unit was desig=
ned for, this seems much smaller than necessary for your application.=C2=A0=
 In subfreezing temperatures, I have observed
 fine suspended crystals when sumping the tanks. They are most likely ice s=
ince they disappear at warmer temperatures although no liquid water has bee=
n recovered when sumping the tanks.=C2=A0 Y&#39;all who&#39;ve never seen a=
 snowflake would not run into this (sorry Charlie).
 The crystals have not caused any=C2=A0 problems in my system that I am awa=
re of.=C2=A0 It is possible that they may be trapped by the fine filter med=
ia that you are using.=C2=A0 Whether or not this might be a problem remains=
 to be seen.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The above concerns may be worth considering if you have not already reso=
lved them to your satisfaction.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Dave,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thank you for your explanation of the use of the fuel flow transducer in=
 the fuel return line.=C2=A0 I have a single fuel flow transducer in the li=
ne leading to the dead headed fuel rail for fuel flow and fuel remaining pu=
rposes.=C2=A0 At the condition inspection,
 I temporarily attach a fuel line from the fuel rail to a tank filler openi=
ng allowing a check on the fuel system condition using that fuel flow trans=
ducer in conjunction with the fuel pressure reading.=C2=A0 Your system allo=
ws continuous monitoring while eliminating
 the need to install temporary plumbing to check the fuel system health.</p=
>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Steve Boese=C2=A0<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>

<br>--<br>
Homepage:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.flyrotary.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.flyrotary.com/</a><br>
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/=
lists/flyrotary/List.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail=
.lancaironline.net:<wbr>81/lists/flyrotary/List.html</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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