X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=nIc0VDSzMRGb8XsmHHV1bw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=XBAR8bTYp4B6nJPrCvAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Y0KKX4iPc1_36fIrUe0A:9 a=_w59UOnuac0tH1ER:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10039656 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:11:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.46; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b189so3476536wmd.0 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zB8lWmikXFieSrnSjPKCn7tqCQfhixRA4iHBPS1v69A=; b=qMVFxurEYeqeEcun4hlooFq85H8kKBwv4xDGCx8SaxgkR4dWlmSHpG/bE74a2F81nl 8xWnXo6py554jhMkm2nczFTqRDRP3+rtTbCSeSrTzBnUnXpanjmjH+AEQ8gZUTyItmbx Pr1DEvt9eQAXM3ZCdtRlcX9oP5bxmTIr9ZIk45iSnuorTVir+cSLIPfNrptw1koJM61A hVl8W6BZlqLA01MGhcQufIK//2iGWaMgXiuGcSyV16s5hf7gijqe/VX4wZtcphFi4qj+ N8FMTdiGige3YCwQj4sNyT6V4T6rqVt0hf+sFogQ4yTFExtBKmBLVKB3NFtjoFXvTksq 5dhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=zB8lWmikXFieSrnSjPKCn7tqCQfhixRA4iHBPS1v69A=; b=odxZ6DkM3uAgMA0KqQVkgE83YBzYJnIoLGo4UFr4obFlhtH7xgCwq8ExZKlVtCJDJ7 CwDdkBm16RgTHgiVciaxUl/kjq8Lsjl5Emcs8+ulpftWMGyHNrf0xFYVNmwg56r0AmHD WiAwwyzsSM+HaUaTsrxl5kCOBzjfF6v7HGpOQ/rCiB5WOSZQICmGN4awk2tJ6qQC60wO 3EW7LMmeYTGVyx6Dp+aVnN3YX4vvx6xg4JUgM9HGLPDcGW2i7Z1ezaIUmsD1TLaMIkeA ow2oz/sQyejuD/ORy8rFGf9eiJlbzFmCMe93YSbqw+oCl/f5tu4TKt6JE0MaXv5CLjrX 2XAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iDib3x0l4GKf89FwnwIGil3uEnZH/G+Tcd+GRFmZXwaOVlUmos YOIyRw4Y/2ZxkJv+4RP8FnvXIyJdAQ== X-Received: by 10.80.167.197 with SMTP id i63mr3741341edc.124.1503508285662; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:11:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:11:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Heat Soak & Fuel Purge valve- Another half baked idea? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1951d648acf905576ecd82" --94eb2c1951d648acf905576ecd82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Matt; As Tracy has said, it should be noted that a true modern automotive returnless design has a pump regulator assembly mounted directly in the fuel tank. I believe there is someone on this list that has also done this. That would be the best if not for the weight penalty of a pump/regulator for each tank. And while it is a small risk, it does also involve routing hi-pressure fuel through the cabin. So mine isn't really a true returnless system, but since I'm not returning to a tank, I call it that. As I have 6 tanks, I originally went with a header tank in my original fuel system as a simple way to manage the fuel. But it suffered from vapor lock. Venting it helped, but when doing circuits with a climb out every few minutes it still had excessive vapor issues. And by venting I always had to manage the facet transfer pumps to ensure it didn't go empty or full and pump fuel out the vent. So I added a valve to the vent that I could shut when in cruise. I looked into level management systems, etc, etc. That simple header tank was creating a very complicated fuel system which is dangerous. Having 6 tanks to select from already adds a level of complexity, so I needed to eliminate the extra issues with the header tank. I was hesitant to remove it as I'd spent considerable time and effort to install that, but in the end it was the right thing to do. With that said, when I converted to a returnless system, I did make other changes that may have helped the header tank system, but I'm not going to second guess the decision to remove it. Now my returnless system has low-press fuel routed through the cockpit, and as soon as it passes through the firewall it enters a large cartridge type fuel filter/water separator and then feeds 2 hi-press EFI pumps. The are mounted on the cool side of the FW, but unfortunately are still exposed to the heat of the engine/exhaust, but are shielded from direct exposure due to their location. So the returnless system seems to work very well, with the exception of this heat soak that seems to be at worst about an hour after shutdown. Fuel pumps and regulator located on the cool side of the firewall should completely eliminate this. At the risk of adding back some complexity I'm pretty much sold on the idea of a momentary-on push button operated solenoid valve to vent the header. The reason I'm not so adverse to this is that you have to make it vent by holding the button. It can't be inadvertently left on... as long as the button doesn't stick! The regulator I'm using is from SX Performance 15404-3. The fuel filter is a Parker Racor 120A with the R12S filter cartridge and I added the optional RK10109 metal fuel bowl kit and the RK30880E water-in-fuel detection kit. I use the vent port for my regulator return. Todd --- going fishin... Todd Bartrim On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Matt Boiteau wrote: > What was your reason to go return-less? > > I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle spar. Front left & > right, Back left & right. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank > (plus their return lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel > supplies and returns to it. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank > using transfer pump. No selector valve, full return system. > > -Matt Boiteau > > On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" wrote: > >> By opening manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of the >> RV cowl to let it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to >> miss and if I did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be >> doing a good job of my pre-flight inspection. >> But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may have given more >> serious consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this year when I was >> doing fiberglass work on the cowl. >> At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge to >> the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, I'm >> probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my boat so >> I can take my kid fishing tomorrow. >> >> Todd >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> >Cheaper, lighter and probably safer to just open the door manually. >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> ______________ >>> Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably >>> Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative???? >>> Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been >>> used in aircraft already for just this purpose. >>> With a front hinged vent door I cannot see a benefit to using a >>> manual mechanical method of operation. >>> If you do use a mechanical actuator ..... don't forget to come >>> back and close it. >>> >>> All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution for >>> you. >>> >>> >> >> --94eb2c1951d648acf905576ecd82 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Matt;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Tracy has said, it should be = noted that a true modern automotive returnless design has a pump regulator = assembly mounted directly in the fuel tank. I believe there is someone on t= his list that has also done this. That would be the best if not for the wei= ght penalty of a pump/regulator for each tank. And while it is a small risk= , it does also involve routing hi-pressure fuel through the cabin.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So mine isn't really a true returnless system, but since= I'm not returning to a tank, I call it that.
=C2=A0 As I hav= e 6 tanks, I originally went with a header tank in my original fuel system = as a simple way to manage the fuel. But it suffered from vapor lock. Ventin= g it helped, but when doing circuits with a climb out every few minutes it = still had excessive vapor issues. And by venting I always had to manage the= facet transfer pumps to ensure it didn't go empty or full and pump fue= l out the vent. So I added a valve to the vent that I could shut when in cr= uise. I looked into level management systems, etc, etc. That simple header = tank was creating a very complicated fuel system which is dangerous.
<= div>=C2=A0 Having 6 tanks to select from already adds a level of complexity= , so I needed to eliminate the extra issues with the header tank. I was hes= itant to remove it as I'd spent considerable time and effort to install= that, but in the end it was the right thing to do. With that said, when I = converted to a returnless system, I did make other changes that may have he= lped the header tank system, but I'm not going to second guess the deci= sion to remove it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now my returnless system has low-= press fuel routed through the cockpit, and as soon as it passes through the= firewall it enters a large cartridge type fuel filter/water separator and = then feeds 2 hi-press EFI pumps. The are mounted on the cool side of the FW= , but unfortunately are still exposed to the heat of the engine/exhaust, bu= t are shielded from direct exposure due to their location.
=C2=A0= =C2=A0So the returnless system seems to work very well, with the exception= of this heat soak that seems to be at worst about an hour after shutdown. = Fuel pumps and regulator located on the cool side of the firewall should co= mpletely eliminate this.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0At the risk of adding back = some complexity I'm pretty much sold on the idea of a momentary-on push= button operated solenoid valve to vent the header. The reason I'm not = so adverse to this is that you have to make it vent by holding the button. = It can't be inadvertently left on... as long as the button doesn't = stick!
=C2=A0 The regulator I'm using is from SX Performance = 15404-3.
=C2=A0 The fuel filter is a Parker Racor 120A with the R= 12S filter cartridge and I added the optional RK10109 metal fuel bowl kit a= nd the RK30880E water-in-fuel detection kit. I use the vent port for my reg= ulator return.

Todd =C2=A0--- going fishin...

Todd Bartr= im

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Matt Boitea= u <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
What was your reason to go return-less?

I have 4 tanks in the w= ings split between the middle spar. Front left & right, Back left &= right. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank (plus their return= lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel supplies and returns to i= t. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank using transfer pump. No sel= ector valve, full return system.

-Matt Boiteau

On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartr= im" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
By opening = manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of the RV cowl to l= et it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to miss and if I = did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be doing a good = job of my pre-flight inspection.
But I do think it's a good idea an= d one that I may have given more serious consideration to if I'd known = about it earlier this year when I was doing fiberglass work on the cowl.
At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel pu= rge to the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge= , I'm probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on m= y boat so I can take my kid fishing tomorrow.

Todd=

Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Man= n <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>Cheaper, lighter and proba= bly safer to just open the door manually.
____________________________________________________________= ______________
Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably
Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative????
Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been used = in aircraft already for just this purpose.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 With a front hinged vent door I cannot= see a benefit to using a manual mechanical method of operation.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you do use a mechanical actuator ..= ... don't forget to come back and close it.
=C2=A0
All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution= for you.
=C2=A0


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