X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=rmkGTApW8NjPAK4tvMqaxw==:117 a=JGd85jWC1JFTie9WQuhZNw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=VqmtQeTB-p0A:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=JoQWYm39AAAA:8 a=wrnlkVK_AAAA:8 a=mdpWXDrnaVL91E457ukA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=T3ADr_yizFYNRHMvfskA:9 a=De--ja9rXu-rTW7d:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=ABpvz31vvg_prsUBKvxG:22 From: "Tracy" Received: from mail-it0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10039620 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:04:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.41; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-it0-f41.google.com with SMTP id f135so1887833ita.0 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:04:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:references:from:in-reply-to:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=33wCUoG3x4KuT1/9sA6vJT8YuGHp8BjQ14d3u7/sOfo=; b=qm1/OaXxBK1zQDb1+u8kGJ8bImeoB7VATvE1hUteUfRisz4OtCgKmnzE+pJWCr3cah UM/Ete9omp5lAzPTHPszw9FbqW+eHdZncypchgexm6RvTkYNJGZVY2+2L0p1QmKM9cWI DYeAi/vRyxFbGfkcoyBR+Rfyt6+mIV21Vgpcz55uwZZqTi9Qs3hjDtudRnjEQDdazG13 1V7n0eqRnfFf63Jx7vR1JrH0YTcGtboUDFjs6iMp/AelW7faf0PC+zH60a0lmrQvcqla Rq+wyfUC30MF8iCCefE65bwzBzcjNsi0e9AhbZegUVqya4Fd/Nih3rzrSxA7t/7RzJmi OH6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:from:in-reply-to:message-id :date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=33wCUoG3x4KuT1/9sA6vJT8YuGHp8BjQ14d3u7/sOfo=; b=cX0kTFIJ9R8lqJfj+pW2e3noAckzzE/TEGWKQ31k7iLwTMuc0BB/bpEm2wD+1MyoZF JQvWN1kMOH39KSS73MZFxbkm4HlGXlmqcDP9sGx6kPn1WZFH6wKYutcRsUSKaRxLhcr2 ITE6kIEk3zF+j3GeEEyMVUBNDS3GM7rkHPsAr2+wowncjOI1CGLcsKo09QoRGKAsJPpS actqSh20f9x3L3J8H+BWvvEaTP0zLv6EmfJKYzy1awviJO4XDYjqYcCRliSk/RgFOhmi hQDaUFQxOd2hjW+IFC6SLQ31n+Rs7CyEHgBwAEnfObYFvFk4s46e7rlBumrWf/JRhsCY dvLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gLfHU7NlaxokKRGKkVAs15SY5dZJOYwwxs0Tsj3ypp7CYRYBH2 /8vQfYjsglxh8RV/Eyc= X-Received: by 10.36.56.198 with SMTP id b189mr511488ita.143.1503507843209; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.233.93.69] (31.sub-97-43-195.myvzw.com. [97.43.195.31]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x187sm1144627itd.21.2017.08.23.10.04.00 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Heat Soak & Fuel Purge valve- Another half baked idea? References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-801B31DD-3EA3-455F-A29D-301F3715C652 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G36) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:03:56 -0600 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-801B31DD-3EA3-455F-A29D-301F3715C652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good info. Do you know if these PWM regulators work with any EFI pump or ar= e they for the turbine type pumps only? Charlie England showed me a turbine= type specifically designed for this kind of setup. Tracy Crook > On Aug 23, 2017, at 10:19, Matt Boiteau wrot= e: >=20 > There's a few ways to modulate the fuel pump correctly. The MegaSquirt EFI= system can handle sending PWM out to the fuel pump to maintain the correct p= si. >=20 > Ford has a Fuel Pump Driver Module (FPDM) that takes a PWM input signal, o= utputs PWM at 20-30 amps driving current (fuel pump or any accessory).=20 > https://www.amazon.ca/Dorman-590-001-Fuel-Driver-Module/dp/B005JJ0D22 >=20 > For SSR relay route, Hella H41773001 handles 32A=20 > https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hla-h41773001/overview/ >=20 > I'm not sure, but also a nitrous solid state relay might work too. All of t= his is untested, just saved up in my research folders for version 2.0 of pla= ne. Finding a good external fuel pump is the hard part. Aeromotive A1000 han= dles PWM, but at a price ~$400. Can't find any external Walbro's that will, o= nly internal. >=20 >=20 > - Matt Boiteau >> On 8/23/2017 10:51:37 AM, alex wrote: >>=20 >> What fuel regulator do you guys recommend? >>=20 >> My current setup uses a duplex fuel valve (came with the kit) drawing fue= l from either L or R front tank and returning it to the same tank. The L & R= rear tanks pump their fuel into their respective front tanks, via a facet p= ump on each wingtip. >>=20 >> I like Tracy's idea of regulating fuel pressure by modulating the fuel pu= mp.=20 >>=20 >> As a crude method I had considered a DC controller on the primary pump a w= hile back to get more "electrical" range out the batteries when crossing wat= er with a possible alternator failure, but that's a project for a few years a= way. >>=20 >> What's everyone using on their conventional return system setups and any r= easoning behind it? >>=20 >> Alex Molteno >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Aug 23, 2017 2:21 PM, "Tracy" wrote: >>> I went 'returnless' for simplicity of fuel plumbing, simplicity of insta= lling a fuel flow sensor between regulator and fuel rail and because vapor l= ock is not a problem on the high pressure side of the system. In my experie= nce, Vapor lock only happens on the inlet side of the fuel pump. If you eli= minate it there, any heat soak problem after shutdown will quickly clear its= elf on startup. =20 >>>=20 >>> Since the pump and regulator is not in the tank, my system is not truly r= eturnless since the regulator must have a return to the tank (unless you imp= lement fuel pressure regulation by modulating the fuel pump power). =20 >>>=20 >>> I only feed and return from one tank, the other tank just refills the fe= ed tank via transfer pump which Ts into the feed tank return line. =20 >>>=20 >>> Tracy >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>>> On Aug 23, 2017, at 06:23, Matt Boiteau w= rote: >>>>=20 >>>> What was your reason to go return-less? >>>>=20 >>>> I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle spar. Front left &= right, Back left & right. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank (= plus their return lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel supplies a= nd returns to it. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank using transfe= r pump. No selector valve, full return system. >>>>=20 >>>> -Matt Boiteau >>>>=20 >>>>> On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" wr= ote: >>>>> By opening manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of t= he RV cowl to let it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to m= iss and if I did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be doing= a good job of my pre-flight inspection. >>>>> But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may have given more ser= ious consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this year when I was doi= ng fiberglass work on the cowl. >>>>> At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge= to the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, I'= m probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my boat so= I can take my kid fishing tomorrow. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Todd >>>>>=20 >>>>> Todd Bartrim >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann wrote: >>>>>> >Cheaper, lighter and probably safer to just open the door manually. >>>>>> _____________________________________________________________________= _____ >>>>>> Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably >>>>>> Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative???? >>>>>> Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been= used in aircraft already for just this purpose. >>>>>> With a front hinged vent door I cannot see a benefit to using a= manual mechanical method of operation. >>>>>> If you do use a mechanical actuator ..... don't forget to come= back and close it. >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution fo= r you. --Apple-Mail-801B31DD-3EA3-455F-A29D-301F3715C652 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good info.  Do you know if these P= WM regulators work with any EFI pump or are they for the turbine type pumps o= nly?  Charlie England showed me a turbine type specifically designed fo= r this kind of setup.

Tracy Crook

On Aug 23, 2017, at 10:19, Ma= tt Boiteau <flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net> wrote:

There's a few ways to modulate the f= uel pump correctly. The MegaSquirt EFI system can handle sending PWM out to t= he fuel pump to maintain the correct psi.

Ford has a Fuel= Pump Driver Module (FPDM) that takes a PWM input signal, outputs PWM at 20-30 amps driving curren= t (fuel pump or any accessory). 

For SSR relay route, Hella H41773001 handl= es 32A 

I'm not sure, but also a nitrous solid= state relay might work too. All of this is untested, just saved up in my re= search folders for version 2.0 of plane. Finding a good external fuel pump is the hard part. Aerom= otive A1000 handles PWM, but at a price ~$400. Can't find any external Walbr= o's that will, only internal.


- Matt Boiteau

On 8/= 23/2017 10:51:37 AM, alex <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

What fuel r= egulator do you guys recommend?

My current setup uses a duplex fuel valve (came with the kit) drawing fuel f= rom either L or R front tank and returning it to the same tank. The L & R= rear tanks pump their fuel into their respective front tanks, via a facet p= ump on each wingtip.

I like Tracy's idea of regula= ting fuel pressure by modulating the fuel pump. 

As a crude method I had considered a DC controller on the= primary pump a while back to get more "electrical" range out the batteries w= hen crossing water with a possible alternator failure, but that's a project f= or a few years away.

What's everyon= e using on their conventional return system setups and any reasoning behind i= t?

Alex Molteno


On Aug 23, 2017 2= :21 PM, "Tracy" <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:
I went 'returnless' for simplicity of fuel p= lumbing, simplicity of installing a fuel flow sensor between regulator and f= uel rail and because vapor lock is not a problem on the high pressure side o= f the system.  In my experience, Vapor lock only happens on the inlet s= ide of the fuel pump.  If you eliminate it there, any heat soak problem= after shutdown will quickly clear itself on startup.  

Since the pump and regulator is not in the tan= k, my system is not truly returnless since the regulator must have a return t= o the tank (unless you implement fuel pressure regulation by modulating the f= uel pump power).   

I= only feed and return from one tank, the other tank just refills the feed ta= nk via transfer pump which Ts into the feed tank return line.  

Tracy



Sent from my iPad

On Aug 23, 2017, at 06:= 23, Matt Boiteau <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

What was your reason to go return-less?

I have 4 tanks in the win= gs split between the middle spar. Front left & right, Back left & ri= ght. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank (plus their return lin= es), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel supplies and returns to it. An= d the rest of the tanks feed the main tank using transfer pump. No selector v= alve, full return system.

-Ma= tt Boiteau

On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :
By opening ma= nually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of the RV cowl to let i= t cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to miss and if I did m= iss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be doing a good job of my p= re-flight inspection.
But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may= have given more serious consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this= year when I was doing fiberglass work on the cowl.
At this point t= hough it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge to the injector head= er, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, I'm probably going to j= ump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my boat so I can take my kid fi= shing tomorrow.

Todd

Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>Cheaper, lighter and probably s= afer to just open the door manually.
_____________________________________________________________= _____________
Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably
Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative????
Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been used i= n aircraft already for just this purpose.
       With a front hinged vent door I cannot s= ee a benefit to using a manual mechanical method of operation.
       If you do use a mechanical actuator ...= .. don't forget to come back and close it.
 
All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution for y= ou.
 

= --Apple-Mail-801B31DD-3EA3-455F-A29D-301F3715C652--