X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=FiysPuC7j0KWWPdSEIJ08g==:117 a=h3Q2E9P/XjtajTWyLSYO/w==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=K7ySfSCCDxUA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=JoQWYm39AAAA:8 a=wrnlkVK_AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=29BfLimOxLwbfGJycqoA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=T3ADr_yizFYNRHMvfskA:9 a=xRKCbHT1ivg6KNep:21 a=ABpvz31vvg_prsUBKvxG:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Matt Boiteau" Received: from mail-it0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10039363 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 12:19:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=mattboiteau@gmail.com Received: by mail-it0-f52.google.com with SMTP id f135so1403747ita.0 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:19:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references :user-agent; bh=0tigQhhIaNLTi2Twi/EyV3iKujEuN+wJ8Ds1R47MMak=; b=pQtowXwq+o1llgMa4OQfM4bDmmcVhuwdTkZE7hw4fgGYxvbpQR9/FbDFjzT79vUA7q LYvZSFaM+V6wX8xSx2fvRieQVoJTqaB+VAbziYmxJ5C2LHnnF4nZ/uxws7sShbULMECr nU4Tp3MS10FLejfrx8ZAXMvZsBxskMw806t5cjDdruADepJZ84dntLzRkwloD6RhVN0o VAApbDM7nQnmdqXU6J3qclJHHdPlxLw0xK/KNKyqLd9IF4sHrYAe2ay6D6Cq58ZU/RfQ zYaZXu7nBFKkl/h5eO6C1u/5+V4xubLe1+OgVnoa1zncdSy/DNw1mex3QYbZ2rW3NMJ6 ACjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :in-reply-to:references:user-agent; bh=0tigQhhIaNLTi2Twi/EyV3iKujEuN+wJ8Ds1R47MMak=; b=nkE66Kvc5AswwWZYK4V6A/u2UVBPZq7WIx8Hfn0cpX1OBxnERUQPHL414ttbDqLy2r eKsD5xhl0nhB9ffQ2q3tngzAKM2sAlvYyzhdhPVPhlDjvWeKEuz2GgnjDfpqvKaZHpEx mNyvE+Ne4b/bInzpoGNLVCvMPFAoPpl1trUjEe8/WOGIsqu7H9vq7V1UjLGpasqX9+tA haBN/eZaQzVBXRSEb1khq4DOUaU0U6SR8reezo9CaaTWTFv9wtctuOD3/oDgTH/eNfSk 3sCgkemA1whUFTWp188FqHDXQ9VIEhedwqLApqyA/CgTugpBswDvkpqQoKBB/AgQR9Mo Gv3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j2DQpIrUi+u3OxcAV/AZdPlErXN1B+5dARdE522JqnQSSy0KjU DrI7qfoebt5WAnY5XTU= X-Received: by 10.36.152.2 with SMTP id n2mr3335903itd.150.1503505162234; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.105] (67-58-219-34.eastlink.ca. [67.58.219.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 126sm1116702itl.38.2017.08.23.09.19.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_25532122.374792541693" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 12:19:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Heat Soak & Fuel Purge valve- Another half baked idea? To: "alex" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Mailbird/2.4.7.0 X-Mailbird-ID: fe6672eb-a6e9-4511-809b-ccb07becc2cc@getmailbird.com ------=_NextPart_25532122.374792541693 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a few ways to modulate the fuel pump correctly. The MegaSquirt EFI = system can handle sending PWM out to the fuel pump to maintain the correct = psi. Ford has a Fuel Pump Driver Module (FPDM) that=C2=A0takes a PWM input signa= l, outputs PWM at 20-30 amps driving current (fuel pump or any accessory).= =C2=A0 https://www.amazon.ca/Dorman-590-001-Fuel-Driver-Module/dp/B005JJ0D22 For SSR relay route, Hella H41773001 handles 32A=C2=A0 https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hla-h41773001/overview/ I'm not sure, but also a nitrous solid state relay might work too. All of t= his is untested, just saved up in my research folders for version 2.0 of pl= ane.=C2=A0Finding a good external fuel pump is the hard part. Aeromotive A1= 000 handles PWM, but at a price ~$400. Can't find any external Walbro's tha= t will, only internal. - Matt Boiteau On 8/23/2017 10:51:37 AM, alex wrote: What fuel regulator do you guys recommend? My current setup uses a duplex fuel valve (came with the kit) drawing fuel = from either L or R front tank and returning it to the same tank. The L & R = rear tanks pump their fuel into their respective front tanks, via a facet p= ump on each wingtip. I like Tracy's idea of regulating fuel pressure by modulating the fuel pump. As a crude method I had considered a DC controller on the primary pump a wh= ile back to get more "electrical" range out the batteries when crossing wat= er with a possible alternator failure, but that's a project for a few years= away. What's everyone using on their conventional return system setups and any re= asoning behind it? Alex Molteno On Aug 23, 2017 2:21 PM, "Tracy" wrote: I went 'returnless' for simplicity of fuel plumbing, simplicity of installi= ng a fuel flow sensor between regulator and fuel rail and because vapor loc= k is not a problem on the high pressure side of the system. In my experienc= e, Vapor lock only happens on the inlet side of the fuel pump. If you elimi= nate it there, any heat soak problem after shutdown will quickly clear itse= lf on startup. Since the pump and regulator is not in the tank, my system is not truly ret= urnless since the regulator must have a return to the tank (unless you impl= ement fuel pressure regulation by modulating the fuel pump power). I only feed and return from one tank, the other tank just refills the feed = tank via transfer pump which Ts into the feed tank return line. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 23, 2017, at 06:23, Matt Boiteau wrote: What was your reason to go return-less? I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle spar. Front left & rig= ht, Back left & right. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank (pl= us their return lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel supplies a= nd returns to it. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank using transf= er pump. No selector valve, full return system. -Matt Boiteau On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" wrote: By opening manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of the R= V cowl to let it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to mis= s and if I did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be doing = a good job of my pre-flight inspection. But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may have given more serious = consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this year when I was doing f= iberglass work on the cowl. At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge to t= he injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, I'm pr= obably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my boat so I = can take my kid fishing tomorrow. Todd Todd Bartrim On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann wrote: >Cheaper, lighter and probably safer to just open the door manually. __________________________________________________________________________ Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative???? Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been used = in aircraft already for just this purpose. With a front hinged vent door I cannot see a benefit to using a manual mech= anical method of operation. If you do use a mechanical actuator ..... don't forget to come back and clo= se it. All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution for you. ------=_NextPart_25532122.374792541693 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There's a few ways to modulate the = fuel pump correctly. The MegaSquirt EFI system can handle sending PWM out t= o the fuel pump to maintain the correct psi.

Ford has a = Fuel Pump Driver Module (FPDM) that takes a PWM input signal, outputs PWM at 20-30 amps driving = current (fuel pump or any accessory). 
https://www.amazon.ca/Dorman-590-001-Fuel-Driver-= Module/dp/B005JJ0D22

For SSR relay route, Hella H41773001 hand= les 32A 
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hla-h4177300= 1/overview/

I'm not sure, but also a nitrous solid= state relay might work too. All of this is untested, just saved up in my r= esearch folders for version 2.0 of plane. Finding a good external fuel pump is the hard part. Ae= romotive A1000 handles PWM, but at a price ~$400. Can't find any external W= albro's that will, only internal.


- Matt Boiteau

On 8= /23/2017 10:51:37 AM, alex <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

What fuel regulator do you guys recommend?

My current setup uses a duplex fuel valve (cam= e with the kit) drawing fuel from either L or R front tank and returning it= to the same tank. The L & R rear tanks pump their fuel into their resp= ective front tanks, via a facet pump on each wingtip.

I like Tracy's idea of regulating fuel pressure by modulating the= fuel pump.=C2=A0
<= br>
As a crude meth= od I had considered a DC controller on the primary pump a while back to get= more "electrical" range out the batteries when crossing water wi= th a possible alternator failure, but that's a project for a few years = away.

What's everyone using o= n their conventional return system setups and any reasoning behind it?

Alex Molteno


On Aug 23, 2017 2:21= PM, "Tracy" <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I went 'returnless' fo= r simplicity of fuel plumbing, simplicity of installing a fuel flow sensor = between regulator and fuel rail and because vapor lock is not a problem on = the high pressure side of the system.=C2=A0 In my experience, Vapor lock on= ly happens on the inlet side of the fuel pump.=C2=A0 If you eliminate it th= ere, any heat soak problem after shutdown will quickly clear itself on star= tup. =C2=A0

<= /div>
Since the pump an= d regulator is not in the tank, my system is not truly returnless since the= regulator must have a return to the tank (unless you implement fuel pressu= re regulation by modulating the fuel pump power). =C2=A0=C2=A0

I only feed and return from one tank, the= other tank just refills the feed tank via transfer pump which Ts into the = feed tank return line. =C2=A0

Tracy

=


Sent from my i= Pad

On Aug 23, 2017, at 06:23, Matt Boiteau <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

What was your reason to g= o return-less?

I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle = spar. Front left & right, Back left & right. Instead of having a se= lector valve for each tank (plus their return lines), I made 1 tank the mai= n header tank. Fuel supplies and returns to it. And the rest of the tanks f= eed the main tank using transfer pump. No selector valve, full return syste= m.

-Matt Boiteau
=

On Aug 22, 2017 1= 7:36, "Todd Bartrim" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
By opening = manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of the RV cowl to l= et it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult to miss and if I = did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be doing a good = job of my pre-flight inspection.
But I do think it's a good idea an= d one that I may have given more serious consideration to if I'd known = about it earlier this year when I was doing fiberglass work on the cowl.
At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel pu= rge to the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge= , I'm probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on m= y boat so I can take my kid fishing tomorrow.

Todd=

Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Man= n <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>Cheaper, lighter and pro= bably safer to just open the door manually.
____________________________________________________________= ______________
Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably
Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative????
Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been used = in aircraft already for just this purpose.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 With a front hinged vent door I cannot= see a benefit to using a manual mechanical method of operation.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you do use a mechanical actuator ..= ... don't forget to come back and close it.
=C2=A0
All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution= for you.
=C2=A0

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