X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=gOSS30MhU97zpn2bRypK1g==:117 a=04KzfZMpfno8vfEj0MkdVA==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=sJHPcXbPt0QA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOehDSMbAAAA:20 a=XOTX80EuAAAA:20 a=SQbLNsijAAAA:20 a=3j4BkbkPAAAA:8 a=Bujtalh5AAAA:20 a=F24KDGdVAAAA:20 a=Hqza0dVbAAAA:20 a=NCKqFpi-AAAA:20 a=ZRZwmDVbAAAA:20 a=MGsEt3PBAAAA:20 a=TmyU-Mh6AAAA:20 a=PoZu3tpAAAAA:20 a=bHsnryEMAAAA:20 a=BADPJtUGAAAA:20 a=f-9bBLRcAAAA:20 a=QhLrsF9qAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=YXLVUQKwz_nKc9IHJqoA:9 a=6P7f1rX1YxZ9FMML:21 a=btG936sRYR_G4le7:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HPIAOejwdAwA:10 a=M_Y63lvlAAAA:20 a=1rn6k7xgAAAA:20 a=otkPoNeNqSCC17C7QJUA:9 a=N6DV-Mfs8J18wMwg:21 a=fmNTIh3tXQosyOpv:21 a=0z1iKViFCwN1npug:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=i4tH8neNAzHi3qRh_LgF:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 From: "steve Izett" Received: from mail-pg0-f46.google.com ([74.125.83.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10037473 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 18:38:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.46; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id u191so364898pgc.2 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 15:38:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=VAMNWEdTT2fOz5RbQPygsFYt2Gu53AUXqz7FxAJYMEY=; b=powMNUIR+w1SvanKyhBWAx2PH9J+qgl6ZUf7hO1Ehkrjzhk0SbR9LsVVMatHD4pq6b U530LHlFz0l3Ds/3FB2/KjrKgYsHlagpAqWWJfx6c8YEQsewLpKqyd3VQ8DoL9UooL5a OoI1kMLS5/XeX0qhoB4uS6AvAbg2c2e/3cONQzvPM8QwSu4FQY5eOLLMB7wOvsEDUxS1 k9/WsWzUn01DJg+9lroOMdMYACGTWAxqPfxRvGJqpA+OxPytOK2UGVrbn7aX6QTyHd+A yQOlBA3eKOQteGSyOMowONe2emm8wI44sdup58s9BQCnEs5t8SOVRz/2bPc8l86aZ2zk 4AnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=VAMNWEdTT2fOz5RbQPygsFYt2Gu53AUXqz7FxAJYMEY=; b=rDweTHtzkbDL9WwmuCxCAxH1hDChHhlb2nuJnCg8nX1OHuLyj4AV6IUX8cYPO0iQeK PZ+atztlFjVwqTMltl/DcP6F2aJDNO/mNAG1etmZYiucCi47LePZmEKXK9iLmAhgc5Uc /nSrCrGMOUrWtoNgsThcRIIAvQjHcijQoJHFhbgC9Ysz8BgWL1M+cJDMILPN5mXn5Q3o a+KTscNzY/WCBH5eW+FyVwlTJzoqHLX1ZJzRspvklTHPn5JNQHT1oJ2WMlD3q6IoYc/v NnpJ+XRkGYnoZnxMTAG3IpkY85zARYuWmUmo4gQZ6LGLIIEINWmSR9UHVBNIcL54usj2 +7aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gj5ccuPsyUx7wTx7GULTWSYeSWYtLxHppwJfp70q/E4v1SqyYw eIm59oNIsEA0N6V6m1Q= X-Received: by 10.99.1.140 with SMTP id 134mr630044pgb.233.1503441494611; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 15:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from steves-mbp.lan (203-59-164-185.dyn.iinet.net.au. [203.59.164.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l2sm48070pfe.168.2017.08.22.15.38.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Aug 2017 15:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_79F0C758-C197-4B25-8B6C-F522DEA15DD5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Elec Rad Fans Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 06:38:09 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <28C0B333-66BA-4BDC-85B5-667674C65161@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) --Apple-Mail=_79F0C758-C197-4B25-8B6C-F522DEA15DD5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Todd My seal is the same position just rubber bulb. That welding blanket = sounds like a good idea. Easy for me to check and change over. Thanks Steve > On 23 Aug 2017, at 5:45 am, Todd Bartrim = wrote: >=20 > Hi Steve; > Here's a couple of pics showing how I sealed around the PSRU. The red = material is a piece of welding blanket, so I'm not worried about temps. = It also has hi-temp RTV sealant gluing it in place to the glass as well = as the rivets. > https://goo.gl/photos/2vCGeGNxjfA9NpBfA = > https://goo.gl/photos/BD1YeY9G6WAXner56 = >=20 > This one shows how much foam/fiberglass I added to close the gap = behind the spinner and to get close enough to the PSRU to use this lip = seal > https://goo.gl/photos/noBHhUN1Qm4HC4y99 = >=20 > Todd >=20 > Todd Bartrim >=20 > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:45 AM, steve Izett = > = wrote: > Thanks Todd for the explanation and the photos. > I did a seal between the front of the cowl by adding a glass disc with = a cutout to match the front of Tracy=E2=80=99s box. > I used rubber bulb seal between this glass and box. Now I think about = it I hope the box doesn=E2=80=99t get to hot for the rubber seal. > Perhaps I should add an insulating layer around the very front of the = box (just behind the front bearing retaining plate) >=20 > Here is a link to a small video of an engine run on facebook-=20 > https://www.facebook.com/steve.izett.7/videos/152619891845900/ = >=20 > Cheers > Steve >=20 >> On 22 Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim > wrote: >>=20 >> Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting out of 3 = of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiator. I = didn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close proximity = to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that would fit = and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little airflow = over the turbo. >> Actually there is more to it as well. I spent a lot of time = ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no air gets in there = that hasn't done some work for me by passing through a cooler first. = This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I believe = the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I believe that Ed = had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing undesirable = airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but it didn't = matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing other = fiberglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a closer = tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the = top & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly = here. This second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but = the first one is much more work, however for those of you that have not = yet reached that part of your project, I recommend that you pay = attention to this detail.=20 >> When I built my engine mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and = no cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with the data I could get = from Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that would put a prop = spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had = no idea of the importance this would be later in improving airflows = through the coolers. >>=20 >> One other change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in = another thread, that really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers = (evap cores). Way back when, there was extensive discussion as to = whether series or parallel plumbing would be best for cooling. The = consensus at the time was that the less restrictive flow through 2 = parallel rads would be best. Since I was also using an EWP (DaviesCraig) = and many thought it would not have enough flow to adequately cool the = rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!), I figured I'd better go = with the parallel rads. To do this I had to make some compromises in my = flow routing and with everything else being equal, one of the rads will = always have more flow than the other. But I was never quite sure that I = had made the right choice as a series configuration would ensure all = coolant goes through both rads for a maximum delta T. >> So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. = My desire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales = over to the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of = parallel configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many = ugly compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly = improved upon the original plumbing. >> But will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this = one, but so far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many = other things have changed as well that I still won't be able to say = definitively which way is better. >>=20 >> Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather crude but it works. >> https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49 = >> Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct >> https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8 = >> https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39 = >>=20 >> Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl = to close the gap to the spinner >> https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA = >> https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6 = >> https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9 = >>=20 >> Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I don't = have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct where all = the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very close = proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the = face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a = convoluted route. >> https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6 = >> https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6 = >>=20 >> Old Oil cooler inlet >> https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7 = >> New oil cooler inlet >> https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7 = >> Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl to = use the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine = mount it would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass = molding. Aluminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then = straighten it out. >> https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8 = >>=20 >> Todd -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... = :-) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Todd Bartrim >>=20 >> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izett = > = wrote: >> Thanks Todd >> Yep in Perth near Andrew. >> Do you have photos of your duct work and what made the difference? >> Steve >>> On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of = those fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right = rad. It wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on = the ground and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken = off. I'm sure you would see better results with something like this >>> = http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135/8-thermatic-fan= -12v-0135 = >>> But I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done = with improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my = temps are staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The = temps get hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more = in a separate post). >>> However I would be curious to know the results of testing with a = proper fan. >>> You are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down = under and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, = so give them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for. >>>=20 >>> Todd --- It's a good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see = me or they'd think I went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway. >>>=20 >>> Todd Bartrim >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin = > = wrote: >>> Steve, I don't think they are really an option, not much heat is = generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. = other aspects will be at play like your exits etc. >>> There was tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which = showed complete reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it = would cool better on the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably = sucking the air out. >>> I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic. >>> Andrew >>>=20 >>> Regards >>>=20 >>> Andrew Martin >>>=20 >>> +61 0427477144 >>> +61 8 6365 5648 >>> +61 8 9924 1145 >>> andrew@martinag.com.au >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett = > = wrote: >>> Hi Guys >>> I seam to remember way back something being said about elect fans on = exchangers in aircraft. >>> The reason for my question is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very = good blades for pushing air in tight to the spinner would an elec be = helpful for sitting and taxiing? >>> My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at speed = and how it would go at high air speeds even with a good diffuser. >>> Has anyone ever used one? >>> I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis 4port=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out = of RX7 turbo from memory) >>>=20 >>> >>>=20 >>> Steve Izett >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_79F0C758-C197-4B25-8B6C-F522DEA15DD5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Todd
My seal is the same position just = rubber bulb. That welding blanket sounds like a good idea. Easy for me = to check and change over.

Thanks
Steve
On = 23 Aug 2017, at 5:45 am, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Steve;
Here's a couple of pics showing how = I sealed around the PSRU. The red material is a piece of welding = blanket, so I'm not worried about temps. It also has hi-temp RTV sealant = gluing it in place to the glass as well as the rivets.
https://goo.gl/photos/2vCGeGNxjfA9NpBfA
https://goo.gl/photos/BD1YeY9G6WAXner56

This= one shows how much foam/fiberglass I added to close the gap behind the = spinner and to get close enough to the PSRU to use this lip = seal
https://goo.gl/photos/noBHhUN1Qm4HC4y99

Todd

Todd = Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:45 = AM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd for the = explanation and the photos.
I did a seal between the = front of the cowl by adding a glass disc with a cutout to match the = front of Tracy=E2=80=99s box.
I used rubber bulb = seal between this glass and box. Now I think about it I hope the box = doesn=E2=80=99t get to hot for the rubber seal.
Perhaps I should add an insulating layer around the very = front of the box (just behind the front bearing retaining = plate)

Here is = a link to a small video of an engine run on facebook- 
https://www.facebook.com/steve.izett.7/videos/152619891845900/

Cheers
Steve

On 22 = Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Nothing fancy, but I just did a = thorough job of exit ducting out of 3 of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil = cooler, right coolant radiator. I didn't do an exit duct out of the left = rad due to it's close proximity to the turbo. I just couldn't = realistically make anything that would fit and be efficient and I = figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little airflow over the turbo.
   Actually there is more to it as well. I spent a = lot of time ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no air gets = in there that hasn't done some work for me by passing through a cooler = first. This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I = believe the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I believe = that Ed had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing = undesirable airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but = it didn't matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing = other fiberglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a = closer tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on = the top & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal = tightly here. This second part can be easily done on any completed = aircraft, but the first one is much more work, however for those of you = that have not yet reached that part of your project, I recommend that = you pay attention to this detail. 
  When = I built my engine mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and no cowl, = and no idea what prop I would use so with the data I could get from = Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that would put a prop = spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had = no idea of the importance this would be later in improving airflows = through the coolers.

   One other change I made that I've been meaning = to bring up in another thread, that really only applies to those of us = using 2 coolers (evap cores). Way back when, there was extensive = discussion as to whether series or parallel plumbing would be best for = cooling. The consensus at the time was that the less restrictive flow = through 2 parallel rads would be best. Since I was also using an EWP = (DaviesCraig) and many thought it would not have enough flow to = adequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!), I = figured I'd better go with the parallel rads. To do this I had to make = some compromises in my flow routing and with everything else being = equal, one of the rads will always have more flow than the other. But I = was never quite sure that I had made the right choice as a series = configuration would ensure all coolant goes through both rads for a = maximum delta T.
  So with the opportunity = during this rebuild I revisited this idea. My desire to include the = Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales over to the series = configuration as trying to install it in any sort of parallel = configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly = compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly = improved upon the original plumbing.
  But = will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this one, but so = far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many other = things have changed  as well that I still won't be able to say = definitively which way is better.

Here's a pic of the right rad exit = duct. Rather crude but it works.
https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49
Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers = that seal to this duct
https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8
https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39

Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of = the cowl to close the gap to the spinner
https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA
https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6
https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9

Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I = don't have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct = where all the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very = close proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to = the face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a = convoluted route.
https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6
https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6

Old = Oil cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7
New oil cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7
Oil = cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl to use = the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine mount it = would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. = Aluminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then = straighten it out.
https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8

Todd=  -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... = :-)






Todd = Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 = PM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd
Yep = in Perth near Andrew.
Do you have photos of your = duct work and what made the difference?
Steve
On 22 = Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Long ago = I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of those fans = they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right rad. It = wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on the = ground and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken = off. I'm sure you would see better results with something like this
 http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135
But I'm = still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done with improved = ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my temps are = staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The temps get = hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a = separate post).
  However I would be curious = to know the results of testing with a proper fan.
You= are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down under = and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, so = give them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for.

Todd ---  It's a = good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me or they'd think I = went nuts today, taxing circles in my = driveway.

Todd = Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, = Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve, I = don't think they are really an option, not much heat is generated at = idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. other aspects = will be at play like your exits etc.
There was = tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which showed complete = reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it would cool better on = the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably sucking the air out.
I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic.
Andrew

Regards

Andrew = Martin

+61 0427477144
+61 8 6365 5648
+61 8 9924 1145
andrew@martinag.com.au




On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, = steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi Guys
I seam to = remember way back something being said about elect fans on exchangers in = aircraft.
The reason for my question is if your = prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very good blades for pushing air in tight to = the spinner would an elec be helpful for sitting and taxiing?
My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at = speed and how it would go at high air speeds even with a good = diffuser.
Has anyone ever used one?
I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis = 4port 
I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler = and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of RX7 turbo from memory)

<GSIIRG5.JPG><GSIIRG6.JPG><GSIIRG7.JPG><GSIIRG8.JPG>

Steve Izett







= --Apple-Mail=_79F0C758-C197-4B25-8B6C-F522DEA15DD5--