X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=lhC8jI9inzCNA/sfSJWlfw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=hOehDSMbAAAA:20 a=XOTX80EuAAAA:20 a=SQbLNsijAAAA:20 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3j4BkbkPAAAA:8 a=Bujtalh5AAAA:20 a=F24KDGdVAAAA:20 a=Hqza0dVbAAAA:20 a=NCKqFpi-AAAA:20 a=ZRZwmDVbAAAA:20 a=MGsEt3PBAAAA:20 a=TmyU-Mh6AAAA:20 a=PoZu3tpAAAAA:20 a=bHsnryEMAAAA:20 a=BADPJtUGAAAA:20 a=f-9bBLRcAAAA:20 a=QhLrsF9qAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=WtWpmfyV3eEO7s8E4DwA:9 a=Rgl-TPnY09sIJ1mn:21 a=PHl5nFIZAzNeobIf:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HPIAOejwdAwA:10 a=M_Y63lvlAAAA:20 a=1rn6k7xgAAAA:20 a=otkPoNeNqSCC17C7QJUA:9 a=ql6BmN5aCR437zw3:21 a=f21MK9cLLwA6r5OB:21 a=nkG00LSxbww9QT63:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=i4tH8neNAzHi3qRh_LgF:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wm0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10037311 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 17:45:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.49; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm0-f49.google.com with SMTP id z132so2927852wmg.1 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OxiabycKLTo83paXcPYcYkyhxfaX+SDYVZ5JNH/8+Wg=; b=WFqgHm96ATRAQlCNglbgXu+1vLoDBF9dfz1C4xG5Kg/Kg+dkA8zpKEpPOxq7yDKzGy DUKRu8PbwUioUKmRUtCRuENdQNM0IhHNEkljQORW+XqLQ3Os1bu0m+zV1A855uNJTSp8 4i9L4/cdNF8OabObGuB4jsflyzhLDVmIUCXqbvIyu7a+2MmWr2XMo+D2ie+g897uQKbH 43rJNTkFWY8B5ryAaoCpY9nhI43EpG2Vjohnk8wInhxVIkKeCtfu9qDvquSiFjSxmGDV wYjP26yycGu2j81FwfQTJEJYlve6Gu+hLJyFAqyFP6lgA2bVgZruBUNDjNxrpjwh/xqB +oHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=OxiabycKLTo83paXcPYcYkyhxfaX+SDYVZ5JNH/8+Wg=; b=AColdZLu6lm9/+uzygpIazD67jV8g9LgsT3O9s/HGz23kPs/VsEkNU0B1u1cgBn3W2 7bbQYHDymFrtxd9amsQ5dm+oCo3w2WyO8SVDCiaFeJtZr3+sjcPWI9pS+lsqJXFQS/CN /Dq3zKQsL3HqsydZ8ECLDPmAM0lw3LdaHxMTGicCCoDCwPh69q7a4Jf+5K3FiAIzUEz4 CZmTC3150EuUExhct4Xe1qgksnrquXA8LNfMcffoe5u8Gt9emmcRXusKfKiuF3LXix+t tZ9VcnO6ScKZU3TF6tPiYtpLh1tTwqeKajbIuKCBfzTzSLjWcgmSPy9sUjhBkIJYcpeo 2//A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hp06mdn5CtjrK42ynGpTTJt/u3g8vLoSeGNFRGf80y/6jV3CFX 9QbYHKQKJxgGkrQuxkcXbtE750UzbsIf X-Received: by 10.80.148.167 with SMTP id s36mr1273145eda.106.1503438308192; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:45:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:45:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Elec Rad Fans To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c43d44d340b05575e8243" --f403045c43d44d340b05575e8243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve; Here's a couple of pics showing how I sealed around the PSRU. The red material is a piece of welding blanket, so I'm not worried about temps. It also has hi-temp RTV sealant gluing it in place to the glass as well as the rivets. https://goo.gl/photos/2vCGeGNxjfA9NpBfA https://goo.gl/photos/BD1YeY9G6WAXner56 This one shows how much foam/fiberglass I added to close the gap behind the spinner and to get close enough to the PSRU to use this lip seal https://goo.gl/photos/noBHhUN1Qm4HC4y99 Todd Todd Bartrim On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:45 AM, steve Izett wrote: > Thanks Todd for the explanation and the photos. > I did a seal between the front of the cowl by adding a glass disc with a > cutout to match the front of Tracy=E2=80=99s box. > I used rubber bulb seal between this glass and box. Now I think about it = I > hope the box doesn=E2=80=99t get to hot for the rubber seal. > Perhaps I should add an insulating layer around the very front of the box > (just behind the front bearing retaining plate) > > Here is a link to a small video of an engine run on facebook- > https://www.facebook.com/steve.izett.7/videos/152619891845900/ > > Cheers > Steve > > On 22 Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim > wrote: > > Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting out of 3 of > my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiator. I didn't d= o > an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close proximity to the turbo= . > I just couldn't realistically make anything that would fit and be efficie= nt > and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little airflow over the turbo. > Actually there is more to it as well. I spent a lot of time ensuring > the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no air gets in there that hasn't > done some work for me by passing through a cooler first. This included th= e > diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I believe the greatest gain w= as > made around the prop spinner. I believe that Ed had warned of the pressur= e > behind the spinner causing undesirable airflows into the cowl. I couldn't > remember the details, but it didn't matter, I just knew I needed to block > it. So while I was doing other fiberglass work I extended this face of th= e > cowl by 3/8" to a closer tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I > made a lip seal on the top & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the > PSRU to seal tightly here. This second part can be easily done on any > completed aircraft, but the first one is much more work, however for thos= e > of you that have not yet reached that part of your project, I recommend > that you pay attention to this detail. > When I built my engine mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and no > cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with the data I could get from > Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that would put a prop spinn= er > close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had no idea o= f > the importance this would be later in improving airflows through the > coolers. > > One other change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in another > thread, that really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers (evap > cores). Way back when, there was extensive discussion as to whether serie= s > or parallel plumbing would be best for cooling. The consensus at the time > was that the less restrictive flow through 2 parallel rads would be best. > Since I was also using an EWP (DaviesCraig) and many thought it would not > have enough flow to adequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'l= l > tell you!), I figured I'd better go with the parallel rads. To do this I > had to make some compromises in my flow routing and with everything else > being equal, one of the rads will always have more flow than the other. B= ut > I was never quite sure that I had made the right choice as a series > configuration would ensure all coolant goes through both rads for a maxim= um > delta T. > So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. My > desire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales ove= r > to the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of parall= el > configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly > compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly improv= ed > upon the original plumbing. > But will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this one, > but so far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many other > things have changed as well that I still won't be able to say definitive= ly > which way is better. > > Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather crude but it works. > https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49 > Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct > https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8 > https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39 > > Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl to > close the gap to the spinner > https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA > https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6 > https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9 > > Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I don't have = a > pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct where all the wor= k > was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very close proximity to t= he > turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the face of the > intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a convoluted route. > https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6 > https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6 > > Old Oil cooler inlet > https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7 > New oil cooler inlet > https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7 > Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl to use > the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine mount it > would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. Alumin= um > I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then straighten it out. > https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8 > > Todd -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... :-) > > > > > > > Todd Bartrim > > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izett > wrote: > >> Thanks Todd >> Yep in Perth near Andrew. >> Do you have photos of your duct work and what made the difference? >> Steve >> >> On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim >> wrote: >> >> Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of thos= e >> fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right rad. = It >> wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on the grou= nd >> and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken off. I'm s= ure >> you would see better results with something like this >> http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135/ >> 8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135 >> But I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done with >> improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my temps a= re >> staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The temps get >> hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a separ= ate >> post). >> However I would be curious to know the results of testing with a prope= r >> fan. >> You are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down under >> and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, so giv= e >> them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for. >> >> Todd --- It's a good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me o= r >> they'd think I went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway. >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Steve, I don't think they are really an option, not much heat is >>> generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. oth= er >>> aspects will be at play like your exits etc. >>> There was tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which >>> showed complete reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it wou= ld >>> cool better on the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably sucking t= he >>> air out. >>> I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic. >>> Andrew >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Andrew Martin >>> >>> +61 0427477144 <+61%20427%20477%20144> >>> +61 8 6365 5648 <+61%208%206365%205648> >>> +61 8 9924 1145 <+61%208%209924%201145> >>> andrew@martinag.com.au >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Guys >>>> I seam to remember way back something being said about elect fans on >>>> exchangers in aircraft. >>>> The reason for my question is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very g= ood >>>> blades for pushing air in tight to the spinner would an elec be helpfu= l for >>>> sitting and taxiing? >>>> My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at speed and >>>> how it would go at high air speeds even with a good diffuser. >>>> Has anyone ever used one? >>>> I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis 4port >>>> I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of= RX7 >>>> turbo from memory) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steve Izett >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > --f403045c43d44d340b05575e8243 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve;
Here's a couple of pics showing how I se= aled around the PSRU. The red material is a piece of welding blanket, so I&= #39;m not worried about temps. It also has hi-temp RTV sealant gluing it in= place to the glass as well as the rivets.

This one sho= ws how much foam/fiberglass I added to close the gap behind the spinner and= to get close enough to the PSRU to use this lip seal

Todd

Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:45 AM, steve Izett= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd for t= he explanation and the photos.
I did a seal between the front of the co= wl by adding a glass disc with a cutout to match the front of Tracy=E2=80= =99s box.
I used rubber bulb seal between this glass and box. Now= I think about it I hope the box doesn=E2=80=99t get to hot for the rubber = seal.
Perhaps I should add an insulating layer around the very fr= ont of the box (just behind the front bearing retaining plate)
Here is a link to a small video of an engine run on facebook-= =C2=A0

Cheers
<= span class=3D"HOEnZb">
Steve

On 22 = Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting out= of 3 of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiator. I d= idn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close proximi= ty to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that would= fit and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little a= irflow over the turbo.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Actually there is more to it as wel= l. I spent a lot of time ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no= air gets in there that hasn't done some work for me by passing through= a cooler first. This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, = but I believe the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I believe= that Ed had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing undesirable = airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but it didn= 9;t matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing other fi= berglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a closer tol= erance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the top &= ; bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly here. T= his second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but the first= one is much more work, however for those of you that have not yet reached = that part of your project, I recommend that you pay attention to this detai= l.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 When I built my engine mount, I only had the engi= ne but no PSRU and no cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with the d= ata I could get from Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that wou= ld put a prop spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that = time I had no idea of the importance this would be later in improving airfl= ows through the coolers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0One other ch= ange I made that I've been meaning to bring up in another thread, that = really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers (evap cores). Way back w= hen, there was extensive discussion as to whether series or parallel plumbi= ng would be best for cooling. The consensus at the time was that the less r= estrictive flow through 2 parallel rads would be best. Since I was also usi= ng an EWP (DaviesCraig) and many thought it would not have enough flow to a= dequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!), I fig= ured I'd better go with the parallel rads. To do this I had to make som= e compromises in my flow routing and with everything else being equal, one = of the rads will always have more flow than the other. But I was never quit= e sure that I had made the right choice as a series configuration would ens= ure all coolant goes through both rads for a maximum delta T.
=C2= =A0 So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. My d= esire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales over t= o the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of parallel = configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly comprom= ises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly improved upon t= he original plumbing.
=C2=A0 But will it work???? I gotta admit I= 'm holding my breath on this one, but so far it looks promising with al= l the ground runs. But so many other things have changed =C2=A0as well that= I still won't be able to say definitively which way is better.

Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather crude= but it works.
https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49
Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct

Here'= s a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl to close th= e gap to the spinner

Here&= #39;s the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I don't have= a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct where all the wo= rk was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very close proximity to = the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the face of the interc= ooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a convoluted route.

Old Oil cooler inle= t
New o= il cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7
Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl= to use the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine mou= nt it would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. Al= uminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then straighten it= out.
=
Todd =C2=A0-- sorry for the long winded reply, now my finger= s are sore... :-)





<= div>
Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izet= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd
= Yep in Perth near Andrew.
Do you have photos of your duct work an= d what made the difference?
Steve
On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:1= 0 pm, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

L= ong ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of those fa= ns they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right rad. It wa= sn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on the groun= d and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken off. I'= m sure you would see better results with something like this
But I&#= 39;m still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done wit= h improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my temps ar= e staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The temps get h= ottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a separate = post).
=C2=A0 However I would be curious to know the results of t= esting with a proper fan.
You are in Australia, correct? Davies C= raig is a company from down under and I'm using their EWP's in my p= lane. They seem good to talk to, so give them a call and tell them what you= plan on using it for.

Todd --- =C2=A0It's a g= ood thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me or they'd think I = went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway.

Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
Steve, I don't think they are really an option, not much heat i= s generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. o= ther aspects will be at play like your exits etc.
There was tuftin= g put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which showed complete reversal= of flow through the cowl, explained why it would cool better on the ground= with wind up its ass. prop probably sucking the air out.
I think = this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic.
Andrew
=


On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:
Hi Guys
I seam to remember way back something being said abo= ut elect fans on exchangers in aircraft.
The reason for my questi= on is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very good blades for pushing air in= tight to the spinner would an elec be helpful for sitting and taxiing?
My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at speed an= d how it would go at high air speeds even with a good diffuser.
H= as anyone ever used one?
I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b s= etup on the Renesis 4port=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water c= ooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of RX7 turbo from memory)

=
<GSIIRG5.JPG><GSIIRG6.JPG><GS= IIRG7.JPG><GSIIRG8.JPG><= /div>

Steve Izett


<= /div>




--f403045c43d44d340b05575e8243--