X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Yv0x1WTtHuCSlV9kqv536w==:117 a=Ih6l42xHMxK1pfkZVwgmFQ==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=qDDSYnx4JJCK_BUgI5wA:9 a=2eucv37hUclsUHj5:21 a=xBE6KVenCKaOnxp9:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=Xb3CnXNdLQRa2zZKGW8A:9 a=ikMxKfLdklLL1WkI:21 a=cBTIGdX4_RnlgT5Q:21 a=qMbID7jiphzCmi3E:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com ([209.85.161.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10035367 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 10:27:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.173; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-yw0-f173.google.com with SMTP id y64so24369783ywf.3 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 07:27:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:message-id; bh=WdtWYBEQ7bs7z2O1PzvBuB91cDccSINbWY466eZBm48=; b=ZVrOzQcosns2Xb6uRsV7FavtznAK+7EA75tA+DdtwMsC6Vcaw0WpRQ2HyRz844oDgk Kwx/qGRahnX2Jkk3EMHKaSkcPixG4oQ0SDVmntA3az5P+wx3E/SdNh+h9PE1DbjkSsWf X8tT0IVGqcKIggFj1VT+oFGSmB6Xs6uK9RmddfSmBsFL1DeKprlG3N/Pl3z7H8sIO9ce xEkOIOJBSZLgxWSHIMUm5o+yITO1q089JcrdgVHn8/GMTzZkV6xpf1l9jiKB4kXa+jqP dALYAIUBDNHVB8OJP/SgMXQgtrIjJCqFjVHo2lRE8beYt52vwWdPMPbF2Nw/Z9z5lBf8 XYSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to :message-id; bh=WdtWYBEQ7bs7z2O1PzvBuB91cDccSINbWY466eZBm48=; b=dEMMawKI7HbtUykqhIua+RB4qmRiQxuYgaw5EUbOcLPaVCDAhcUOPgXaBfQ9JdEd0g OnUuahjMcJtj2kvX8gVRaVG3HX9ca7H3ZCSKIErVaTTZJIYZIM8gD9sJ9hdvrafAI4wH FusC11q0vRc7LrCczCpR4a7jiefvdnNR/Uy0fmh3hyO43GclmwyKqZBAuyBHKsuyhIbP p+80VZpmu/rTTmKKRQSPaopPW1hjr5kJWGBt8X+zp4AhFTTJQh+B2+MmN76htvJlL2D4 TBS8bIKBsRmkTdWiMGCATrHVCeamCnjwYuPrFJXgqLoncEAVppOXzHsHhUPYkVudeQxM YYuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jzVjCz962fyUmcZ4Cc5TMrJIf67PVwRP2/t3McBP98bPDUohy/ bwBC+U5wXu7wZRjB/uk= X-Received: by 10.129.193.72 with SMTP id e8mr790967ywl.234.1503412031229; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 07:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.3] (mobile-166-173-248-230.mycingular.net. [166.173.248.230]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z82sm5299188ywb.1.2017.08.22.07.27.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Aug 2017 07:27:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Referenced-Uid: 33034 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing? User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----7YFSS1J5U2CFC6A0T7EE8A87SSDB0F" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Local-Message-Id: <601f71a7-b120-4313-8288-59c5b93f613a@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing? Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:40:11 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <601f71a7-b120-4313-8288-59c5b93f613a@gmail.com> ------7YFSS1J5U2CFC6A0T7EE8A87SSDB0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Got the glasses (and an autopilot)? We're just arriving at Triple Tree wit= h grand daughters=2E =E2=81=A3Charlie=E2=80=8B On Aug 21, 2017, 9:01 AM, = at 9:01 AM, Tracy wrote: >Anyone else plani= ng to see from the air? > >I made last minute plans to see total eclipse ye= sterday when I heard >that a 90 % eclipse is like sex without a happy endi= ng=2E > >The totality band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid= CO >shack) so me & M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY=2E = No >landing, will watch from air then return to Salida,CO=2E I hear that = it >might be possible to see the approaching/receding moon shadow at start= >and end of totality=2E > >Reminds me of that song=2E Suddenly I'm feeli= ng so vain : ) > >Sent from my iPad > >> On Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy <= flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: >> >> Hi Will, >> My rule of thum= b for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI per HP=2E >At 375 CI you would= be on the small side but I think your calculation >of CI is off=2E Thick = rads can be efficient but will need more CI=2E >> >> The needed CI is of= course affected by core design, duct efficiency, >aircraft speed, etc=2E = At 4=2E5" thick you should be in at least a 200 mph >top speed design, othe= rwise you might not have enough diffuser pressure >to force the air through= =2E >> >> Other thoughts: Airflow around the engine is a waste=2E Very l= ittle >cooling for a lot of drag=2E There is no such thing as drag being a= good >idea unless you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber=2E= A >little Cooling Airflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc=2E = is >a good idea=2E >> >> Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7 oil= cooler=2E There is a >big mismatch between the delta P air pressure req= uired between that >cooler and your rad though=2E Separate ducts would be = a good idea >otherwise the oil cooler might hog most of the airflow=2E Ev= en the >pressure on the back side of the heat exchangers can affect the bal= ance >but it sounds like you are going for separate outlets so may not be a= >factor here=2E >> >> Let us know how the project goes! >> >> Tracy Croo= k >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, willia= m Aldridge > wrote: >>> >>> Ok I've spent t= he last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired >of it=2E I'm designing= and building my own design and was wondering what >you guys say is the rig= ht size for the water and oil coolers? I plan >on p-porting the engine so = am expecting 200+ hp=2E I know there's a lot >of factors that go into rad s= izing but let's just say i get a >moderately efficient cooling system, how = much volume do i need? I've >got a cross counter flow setup drawn in now = that is about 375 cu inches >and 10=2E5 x 17=2E75 on the face and about 4= =2E5 inches deep=2E The water >cooler will be mounted perpendicular to th= e airstream with an >adjustable exit ramp=2E For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99= m planning on using a >standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffu= ser on the intake >and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling= =2E I will also >have quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself=2E T= hat will >probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a = slick small >airframe that I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne = in level >flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing=2E >>>= >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Will Aldridge >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for= Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Todd Bartrim >>> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 = 4:56 PM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cool= ers >>> >>> Another great example of how tech changes our lives=2E Back w= hen, we >had to guess at what was happening under the cowl=2E Now a few cli= cks on >Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we = need >to know instead of guessing=2E >>> >>> >>> Virus-free=2E www=2Eava= st=2Ecom >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, E= rnest Christley > wrote: >>> Just a point to= highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting=2E >>> >>> On the Dyke= Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl=2E The >other water co= oler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes=2E The air >exited the cool= er under the cowl close to the firewall, and was >supposed to go down and o= ut the bottom=2E It didn't do that=2E >>> >>> What it did was set up a h= orizontal whirlwind inside the cowl=2E The >air hit the firewall and then = spun around clockwise=2E I discovered what >was happening during the inves= tigation of why some hoses were melting=2E >I constructed a crude dam to f= orce the air out the cowl exit, and saw a >significant drop in temps=2E >>>= >>> All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important = >as the flow outside=2E Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn = >on hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes=2E I have a tiny camera with a >1= 5ft cord that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor=2E I'd >sti= ck it in various places under the cowl and see how the air flows >with the = engine running=2E >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, = Todd Bartrim > wrote: >>> >>> >>> I didn'= t crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat >exchanger, I= only knew that in climb and level flight I had different >cooling between = oil & water and figured I could balance it out with >this heat exchanger at= a small price in weight=2E It certainly doesn't >increase the cooling of t= he system as a whole=2E >>> It should be pointed out that these are not co= olers, only heat >exchangers=2E So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't ha= ve adequate >cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address th= at=2E >>> In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to >= 10000' ASL in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I >still h= ad plenty of room on my oil temps=2E In level flight my coolant >temps woul= d drop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline=2E So >I figured t= his would help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul=2E It still >didn't address= cooling shortfalls properly=2E >>> I believe the biggest culprit in this= was the shape and position >of my oil cooler inlet which was form over fun= ction (hey, it looked >good)=2E >>> Now I have made a lot of other chang= es which hopefully should >address improper cooling airflow=2E As well as r= eshaping the oil cooler >inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for the oil c= ooler, intercooler >and right coolant radiator=2E I did not build a outlet = duct from the left >radiator due to it's close proximity to the turbo exhau= st pipe=2E This >interfered with the space required for a proper exit duct = and I figured >it probably would be a good idea to have some airflow over t= he turbo=2E >Previously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air to fin= d it's >own way out of the cowl through what I believed were adequate sized= >exits=2E Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flows >a= nd finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting is every bit >as i= mportant as inlet ducting=2E >>> The other change I made which I hope wil= l have a significant >effect is I bought a new set of deep pitch blades for= my IVO prop=2E I >also cut it down from 76" to 70"=2E This should give me = a higher cruise >speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow wi= th the same >RPM=2E >>> So with all these changes it's unknown if this Lami= nova cooler will >have any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it= as it it's >only cost at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get= rid of >that I'll just start jogging again=2E=2E=2E not a bad idea anyways= :-) >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, > wrote: >>> As a side note to these observations there is some= thing to be said >about overcooling the engine oil=2E (i=2Ee=2E cooling the= oil too much at >higher altitudes or in cold conditions=2E) >>> An oil-to-= coolant system help to moderate that scenario=2E >>> >>> T Mann >>> >>>= Sent from Windows Mail >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free=2E www=2Eavas= t=2Ecom >>> >>> >>> >>> ------7YFSS1J5U2CFC6A0T7EE8A87SSDB0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Got the glasses (and an autopilot)?
We're just arriving at Triple Tree with gran= d daughters=2E

Charli= e
On Aug 21, 2017, = at 9:01 AM, Tracy <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:
Anyone else planing to see= from the air?

I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday wh= en I heard that a 90 %  eclipse is like sex without a happy ending=2E =  

The totality band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid C= O shack) so me & M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY=2E =   No landing, will watch from air then return to Salida,CO=2E  I = hear that it might be possible to see the approaching/receding  moon s= hadow at start and end of totality=2E
<= br>
Reminds me of that song=2E   S= uddenly I'm feeling so vain : )

Sent from my iPad

On A= ug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

Hi Will,   
My rule of thumb= for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI per HP=2E  At 375 CI you wo= uld be on the small side but I think your calculation of CI is off=2E  = ;Thick rads can be efficient but will need more CI=2E 

<= /div>
The needed CI  is of course affected by core design, duct ef= ficiency, aircraft speed, etc=2E  At 4=2E5" thick you should be in at = least a 200 mph top speed design, otherwise you might not have enough diffu= ser pressure to force the air through=2E

Other tho= ughts:  Airflow around the engine is a waste=2E  Very little cool= ing for a lot of drag=2E  There is no such thing as drag being a good = idea unless you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber=2E  = A little Cooling Airflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc=2E is = a good idea=2E  

Personally I've had good luc= k with the RX-7 oil cooler=2E    There is a big mismatch between = the delta P air pressure required between that cooler and your rad though= =2E  Separate ducts would be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler migh= t hog most of the airflow=2E   Even the pressure on the back side of t= he heat exchangers can affect the balance but it sounds like you are going = for separate outlets so may not be a factor here=2E

Let us know how the project goes!

Tracy Crook
   

Sent from my iPad

On = Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

=

Ok I've spent the last = few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it=2E I'm designing and buil= ding my own design and was wondering what you guys say is the right size fo= r the water and oil coolers?  I plan on p-porting the engine so am ex= pecting 200+ hp=2E I know there's a lot of factors that go into rad sizing = but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, how much vo= lume do i need?   I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in now tha= t is about 375 cu inches and 10=2E5 x 17=2E75 on the face and about 4=2E5 = inches deep=2E   The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular to the= airstream with an adjustable exit ramp=2E  For the oil cooler I=E2=80= =99m planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge dif= fuser on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling= =2E I will also have quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself= =2E  That will probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80= =99s such a slick small airframe that I think it could get uncomfortably cl= ose to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good t= hing=2E

 

Thanks, 

 

=

Will Aldridge 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 = ;

From: Todd Bartrim
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 = 4:56 PM
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers

=

 

Anot= her great example of how tech changes our lives=2E Back when, we had to gue= ss at what was happening under the cowl=2E Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2= days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead= of guessing=2E

 

3D"https://ipmcdn=2Eavast=2Ecom/ima=

Virus-free=2E www=2Eavast=2Ecom


Todd Bart= rim

 

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Chri= stley <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

Just a point to highlight what= Todd was saying about exit ducting=2E

 

= On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the = cowl=2E  The other water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the stra= kes=2E  The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewal= l, and was supposed to go down and out the bottom=2E  It didn't do tha= t=2E

 

What it did was = set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl=2E  The air hit the fire= wall and then spun around clockwise=2E  I discovered what was happeni= ng during the investigation of why some hoses were melting=2E  I const= ructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a significan= t drop in temps=2E

 

<= /div>

All= that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flo= w outside=2E Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, = wires, and engine mount tubes=2E  I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cor= d that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor=2E  I'd stick = it in various places under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engi= ne running=2E

 

 

=

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Ene= t> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt;background:white">

 

I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to= use this Laminova heat exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level flig= ht I had different cooling between oil & water and figured I could bal= ance it out with this heat exchanger at a small price in weight=2E It certa= inly doesn't increase the cooling of the system as a whole=2E

=

=  It should be pointed out that these are not coolers,= only heat exchangers=2E So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adeq= uate cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that=2E

In my case I found that I could climb from 200= 0' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redli= ne, but I still had plenty of room on my oil temps=2E In level flight my c= oolant temps would drop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline= =2E So I figured this would help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul=2E It sti= ll didn't address cooling shortfalls properly=2E

<= /div>

  I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and positi= on of my oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked goo= d)=2E

   Now I have made a lot of o= ther changes which hopefully should address improper cooling airflow=2E As = well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for = the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant radiator=2E I did not build a= outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's close proximity to the turb= o exhaust pipe=2E This interfered with the space required for a proper exi= t duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to have some airflow = over the turbo=2E Previously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air t= o find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed were adequate s= ized exits=2E Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flow= s and finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting is every bit as= important as inlet ducting=2E

  The oth= er change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I bought a = new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop=2E I also cut it down from 76= " to 70"=2E This should give me a higher cruise speed with the accompanying= increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM=2E

=

So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will h= ave any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only c= ost at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll j= ust start jogging again=2E=2E=2E not a bad idea anyways :-)

 

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Th= omas Mann, <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

=

As a side note to these observations there is something to be said ab= out overcooling the engine oil=2E (i=2Ee=2E cooling the oil too much at hi= gher altitudes or in cold conditions=2E)

An o= il-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario=2E

=

 

T Mann

<= /p>

 

Sent from Windows Mail<= /span>

 

=

 

<= /div>

 

3D"https://ipmc=

Virus-free= =2E www=2Eavast=2Ecom=

 

=  

 

------7YFSS1J5U2CFC6A0T7EE8A87SSDB0F--