X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=TQR33/VvWIGGOyBF5FQ3Aw==:117 a=PztgWqEE0rdI0kH/4zgfhA==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=sJHPcXbPt0QA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Bujtalh5AAAA:20 a=F24KDGdVAAAA:20 a=Hqza0dVbAAAA:20 a=NCKqFpi-AAAA:20 a=ZRZwmDVbAAAA:20 a=MGsEt3PBAAAA:20 a=TmyU-Mh6AAAA:20 a=PoZu3tpAAAAA:20 a=bHsnryEMAAAA:20 a=BADPJtUGAAAA:20 a=f-9bBLRcAAAA:20 a=QhLrsF9qAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=EruKUpf36k7gWyPD5GIA:9 a=iGjKm8g9cOvXZikU:21 a=BwySZp7FU9cmfYFd:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HPIAOejwdAwA:10 a=1rn6k7xgAAAA:20 a=otkPoNeNqSCC17C7QJUA:9 a=hrqga9u7X2pbmmnY:21 a=jpt6Pa-n2HsWCe9E:21 a=_gWS9SOK28aVnCQM:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=i4tH8neNAzHi3qRh_LgF:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 From: "steve Izett" Received: from mail-pg0-f54.google.com ([74.125.83.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10034838 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:07:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.54; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id s14so10203617pgs.1 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 05:07:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=2o5o78IEnMZ8uog8U0kAfIYKhkKuHIndU7i61GfX15E=; b=bwWzLkZoylcHfcBocvXD5p3ZBgKMBwrVccQM9Jk1iO3eCJ+jou56jx2dBjaDu9tces Osx5Y8bVZT0LsiRvIykerjbYYWYfCX3iB7A9aLy8tZcWpIbqyJY9Cw5Hxt+smIyqmLsK M9y+wj+kE4Ytv/PE3bycHi6YC9qNDoEx3yXcgDjqWq5Fsi1BM7B+UyOuxN2s87XYkbIV OpK+ogmkW3aN6rZQo3kbBIbfRTQyR1qBOqPpPtcVjlGVc6+kWs1lEcjKvFMaqneVEN60 WNuTEZqjq6TzWvvWf8vcj8kZp2IvCIr6V5dlsqdB1hxa+BzEmMsavC+GUIiF3etRdJQZ n7fA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=2o5o78IEnMZ8uog8U0kAfIYKhkKuHIndU7i61GfX15E=; b=hZ1Dj8taalH+U0VGUDIu+mbPsGZ7VrxPOpBzdT6QsY8dUes7u3rqBSEbBAukg5fPnF GbT6zza4kt0MTjpYIxHzjNDx6MBnAJibYoK8xQfWToUBWlvBffQqvOXJ4cToRUWHzMud Esz5HPlHbvIx/ZqecUKgNXtuWXxT3Rqj/ZZTTnpQWBi32bLzD+607rICFt8X+Cnf9u7L SR4OJ8XnupviNqOPeo3PxyqCfdc3LvKvNR0WtI/jYQRXQSBDDKvGzuwZle/WRI3MPuk4 FHuMJNfmYNGnBRaq1Dll6vjqXz48yk5l9NdSyXgoJ3+ViMBQH+nNREQfyJOlz3gjPGKb HrAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5ic82PaqrDJQ8vJ890iqT2Zf5xB6ANHIiQIADtLaWpMc6JQx+3m NQ4k5jJ/KfuBjVbxVi8= X-Received: by 10.84.217.20 with SMTP id o20mr509260pli.460.1503403652562; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 05:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.1.1.22] (220-253-186-202.dyn.iinet.net.au. [220.253.186.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v11sm30022104pfi.52.2017.08.22.05.07.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Aug 2017 05:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_32A6124A-8B5F-4075-A718-951934E29BBC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Elec Rad Fans Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 20:07:27 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6614B3B3-05D6-4356-A58C-3EEB8C213F01@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) --Apple-Mail=_32A6124A-8B5F-4075-A718-951934E29BBC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi again Todd In relation to series parallel configs. I thought parallel would provide higher temperature delta like you, but = would be concerned to get pretty close to 50 50 split. I suppose you could accurately measure temps and add a small restriction = the the cooler cooler! I have what I think we call a cross flow, which seems to me to be two = series coolers with a common end chamber, one on top of the other. I had a rad place fabricate my water cooler and have always been = concerned that the plate that separates the out from the in tank was not = welded all way around the tank.=20 It=E2=80=99s just fit in and tack welded in place. Any gap lets water go = directly betweem hot to cool side. I must get some delta T figures and compare them with what you guys get. = Having said that, so much would depend on airflow through the core. Cheers Steve > On 22 Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim = wrote: >=20 > Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting out of 3 = of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiator. I = didn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close proximity = to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that would fit = and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little airflow = over the turbo. > Actually there is more to it as well. I spent a lot of time = ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no air gets in there = that hasn't done some work for me by passing through a cooler first. = This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I believe = the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I believe that Ed = had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing undesirable = airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but it didn't = matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing other = fiberglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a closer = tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the = top & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly = here. This second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but = the first one is much more work, however for those of you that have not = yet reached that part of your project, I recommend that you pay = attention to this detail.=20 > When I built my engine mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and = no cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with the data I could get = from Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that would put a prop = spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had = no idea of the importance this would be later in improving airflows = through the coolers. >=20 > One other change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in = another thread, that really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers = (evap cores). Way back when, there was extensive discussion as to = whether series or parallel plumbing would be best for cooling. The = consensus at the time was that the less restrictive flow through 2 = parallel rads would be best. Since I was also using an EWP (DaviesCraig) = and many thought it would not have enough flow to adequately cool the = rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!), I figured I'd better go = with the parallel rads. To do this I had to make some compromises in my = flow routing and with everything else being equal, one of the rads will = always have more flow than the other. But I was never quite sure that I = had made the right choice as a series configuration would ensure all = coolant goes through both rads for a maximum delta T. > So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. = My desire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales = over to the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of = parallel configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many = ugly compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly = improved upon the original plumbing. > But will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this = one, but so far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many = other things have changed as well that I still won't be able to say = definitively which way is better. >=20 > Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather crude but it works. > https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49 = > Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct > https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8 = > https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39 = >=20 > Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl = to close the gap to the spinner > https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA = > https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6 = > https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9 = >=20 > Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I don't = have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct where all = the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very close = proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the = face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a = convoluted route. > https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6 = > https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6 = >=20 > Old Oil cooler inlet > https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7 = > New oil cooler inlet > https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7 = > Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl to = use the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine = mount it would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass = molding. Aluminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then = straighten it out. > https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8 = >=20 > Todd -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... = :-) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Todd Bartrim >=20 > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izett = > = wrote: > Thanks Todd > Yep in Perth near Andrew. > Do you have photos of your duct work and what made the difference? > Steve >> On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim > wrote: >>=20 >> Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of = those fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right = rad. It wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on = the ground and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken = off. I'm sure you would see better results with something like this >> = http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135/8-thermatic-fan= -12v-0135 = >> But I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done = with improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my = temps are staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The = temps get hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more = in a separate post). >> However I would be curious to know the results of testing with a = proper fan. >> You are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down = under and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, = so give them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for. >>=20 >> Todd --- It's a good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see = me or they'd think I went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway. >>=20 >> Todd Bartrim >>=20 >> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin = > = wrote: >> Steve, I don't think they are really an option, not much heat is = generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. = other aspects will be at play like your exits etc. >> There was tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which = showed complete reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it = would cool better on the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably = sucking the air out. >> I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic. >> Andrew >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Andrew Martin >>=20 >> +61 0427477144 >> +61 8 6365 5648 >> +61 8 9924 1145 >> andrew@martinag.com.au >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett = > = wrote: >> Hi Guys >> I seam to remember way back something being said about elect fans on = exchangers in aircraft. >> The reason for my question is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very = good blades for pushing air in tight to the spinner would an elec be = helpful for sitting and taxiing? >> My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at speed and = how it would go at high air speeds even with a good diffuser. >> Has anyone ever used one? >> I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis 4port=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out = of RX7 turbo from memory) >>=20 >> >>=20 >> Steve Izett >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_32A6124A-8B5F-4075-A718-951934E29BBC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi again Todd
In relation to series parallel = configs.
I thought parallel would provide higher = temperature delta like you, but would be concerned to get pretty close = to 50 50 split.
I suppose you could accurately = measure temps and add a small restriction the the cooler = cooler!
I have what I think we call a cross flow, = which seems to me to be two series coolers with a common end chamber, = one on top of the other.
I had a rad place = fabricate my water cooler and have always been concerned that the plate = that separates the out from the in tank was not welded all way around = the tank. 
It=E2=80=99s just fit in and tack = welded in place. Any gap lets water go directly betweem hot to cool = side.
I must get some delta T figures and compare = them with what you guys get. Having said that, so much would depend on = airflow through the core.

Cheers
Steve
On = 22 Aug 2017, at 3:18 pm, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting = out of 3 of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant = radiator. I didn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close = proximity to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that = would fit and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a = little airflow over the turbo.
   Actually = there is more to it as well. I spent a lot of time ensuring the cowl is = well sealed to ensure that no air gets in there that hasn't done some = work for me by passing through a cooler first. This included the = diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I believe the greatest gain = was made around the prop spinner. I believe that Ed had warned of the = pressure behind the spinner causing undesirable airflows into the cowl. = I couldn't remember the details, but it didn't matter, I just knew I = needed to block it. So while I was doing other fiberglass work I = extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a closer tolerance with the = back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the top & bottom = halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly here. This = second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but the first = one is much more work, however for those of you that have not yet = reached that part of your project, I recommend that you pay attention to = this detail. 
  When I built my engine = mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and no cowl, and no idea what = prop I would use so with the data I could get from Tracy and Vans I did = my best to build a mount that would put a prop spinner close to the face = of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had no idea of the importance = this would be later in improving airflows through the coolers.

   One other = change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in another thread, that = really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers (evap cores). Way = back when, there was extensive discussion as to whether series or = parallel plumbing would be best for cooling. The consensus at the time = was that the less restrictive flow through 2 parallel rads would be = best. Since I was also using an EWP (DaviesCraig) and many thought it = would not have enough flow to adequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul = Lamar, he'll tell you!), I figured I'd better go with the parallel rads. = To do this I had to make some compromises in my flow routing and with = everything else being equal, one of the rads will always have more flow = than the other. But I was never quite sure that I had made the right = choice as a series configuration would ensure all coolant goes through = both rads for a maximum delta T.
  So with the = opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. My desire to = include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales over to the = series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of parallel = configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly = compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly = improved upon the original plumbing.
  But = will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this one, but so = far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many other = things have changed  as well that I still won't be able to say = definitively which way is better.

Here's a pic of the right rad exit = duct. Rather crude but it works.
https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49
Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers = that seal to this duct
https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8
https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39

Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of = the cowl to close the gap to the spinner
https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA
https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6
https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9

Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I = don't have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct = where all the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very = close proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to = the face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a = convoluted route.
https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6
https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6

Old = Oil cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7
New oil cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7
Oil cooler exit duct. This seals = tightly to the bottom of the cowl to use the stock RV outlet. I used = aluminum here because of the engine mount it would be extremely = difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. Aluminum I was able to = bend and twist to get it into place then straighten it out.
https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8

Todd=  -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... = :-)






Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 = PM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd
Yep = in Perth near Andrew.
Do you have photos of your = duct work and what made the difference?
Steve
On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, = Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan = (one of those fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind = the right rad. It wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable = difference on the ground and after a short flight the fan blades had = completely broken off. I'm sure you would see better results with = something like this
 http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135
But = I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done with = improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my temps = are staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The temps = get hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a = separate post).
  However I would be curious = to know the results of testing with a proper fan.
You= are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down under = and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, so = give them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for.

Todd ---  It's a = good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me or they'd think I = went nuts today, taxing circles in my = driveway.

Todd = Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
Steve, I = don't think they are really an option, not much heat is generated at = idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. other aspects = will be at play like your exits etc.
There was = tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which showed complete = reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it would cool better on = the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably sucking the air out.
I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic.
Andrew

Regards

Andrew Martin

+61 0427477144
+61 8 6365 5648
+61 8 9924 1145
andrew@martinag.com.au




On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
Hi Guys
I = seam to remember way back something being said about elect fans on = exchangers in aircraft.
The reason for my question = is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very good blades for pushing air in = tight to the spinner would an elec be helpful for sitting and = taxiing?
My concern would be restriction of the = incoming air once at speed and how it would go at high air speeds even = with a good diffuser.
Has anyone ever used = one?
I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup = on the Renesis 4port 
I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI = of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of RX7 turbo from = memory)

<GSIIRG5.JPG><GSIIRG6.JPG><GSIIRG7.JPG><GSIIRG8.JPG>

Steve Izett





= --Apple-Mail=_32A6124A-8B5F-4075-A718-951934E29BBC--