X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=63QI02sh9D3F+j6umzIXxQ==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=khwyK8DuSVkA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=i_-O53owq0MA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=O_tmfv9rQr4FC2wsiSAA:9 a=NeP-8fiVFOytGGja:21 a=gWmjQx3JlFbhy17i:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=YcVSf7uXWBJZgaauKvoA:9 a=ynuaQUCMprVl4mrl:21 a=nhd9btU4ARF1V4i8:21 a=iNHBjRSRnhgg7Ust:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10034079 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 21:10:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.252.207.43; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.100]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id jxhXdOFJ7qQXrjxhndZT36; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 01:10:07 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1503364207; bh=MVnMMNd+f2Wa+UJquahgfnxrQ19VNzVgv9NouqFAIuc=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=GDtKkgGZANlP+fKGposNxfc5H8Xf0KmpoEyGXYT7Q2U7+ZmWr0oeEbRFw/v9kZzyS rVNuJpSar/lsHaWM06mJ6gY6nWDbML1P8SkLOATHUvtikWOKlcIOop3sSG+Sjp8CwY a1ePqNO1Rmawe1hpuQFMKoEGoqCUwjwz66NZzENACA2VEuJZDzXduKzEeM57/+XbTA L0VulfX8aPC8M/gNt8v+nC8JwRfLZ7F1XF4ST2TpN292bXzK2xL93F341EsbGr75q9 ZyvIqe5TyMeqe5pJUdDxzLEzZIDecDH3nylMPRbOqShGpST6f5suQTYeWHohKCgYLC qrEoqMVimxGUg== Received: from resmail-ch2-632v.sys.comcast.net ([162.150.50.156]) by resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id jxhmdVRwLN1TYjxhmdk9s2; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 01:10:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 01:10:06 +0000 (UTC) To: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" Message-ID: <1859885275.60470532.1503364206337.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Eclipse viewing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_60470531_790387710.1503364206330" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:68.49.229.174] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.7_GA_6031 (ZimbraWebClient - GC52 (Win)/8.0.7_GA_6031) Thread-Topic: Eclipse viewing? Thread-Index: MpXZypoA+65C/jv0st1hfBZ/oBENJg== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfI2gffe6bVOqsc2JDJF+k2W2+kZ/Qndd7ZQ94y/SOC7pgkJRpquRq/ng390om77G64SZopdj3qvWeHoZNJ39IjwTz+r6mWLLVTVLx4SyW0O4FgiBlVUz Go9TyFW2jXCDcb8dN+3ibhzUX52n7j6AA/uGPNCK1+S2cNgHzBIvvtSxsgrXMwdvn6+JmERy4fdieLjd8MgluelWgPrODRZ9+a8= ------=_Part_60470531_790387710.1503364206330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the singer was from Texas too, holy moocows!!!!! David=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bobby J. Hughes" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 11:01:25 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eclipse viewing?=20 Reminds me of that song. Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : )=20 You probably think this emails about you=E2=80=94don=E2=80=99t you =E2=80= =93 don=E2=80=99t you=20 HAHAHAH=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 8:01 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing?=20 Anyone else planing to see from the air?=20 I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard that a= 90 % eclipse is like sex without a happy ending.=20 The totality band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid CO shack) = so me & M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY. No landing, wil= l watch from air then return to Salida,CO. I hear that it might be possible= to see the approaching/receding moon shadow at start and end of totality.= =20 Reminds me of that song. Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : )=20 Sent from my iPad=20 On Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy < flyrotary@lancaironline.net > wrote:=20 Hi Will,=20 My rule of thumb for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI per HP. At 375 C= I you would be on the small side but I think your calculation of CI is off.= Thick rads can be efficient but will need more CI.=20 The needed CI is of course affected by core design, duct efficiency, aircra= ft speed, etc. At 4.5" thick you should be in at least a 200 mph top speed = design, otherwise you might not have enough diffuser pressure to force the = air through.=20 Other thoughts: Airflow around the engine is a waste. Very little cooling f= or a lot of drag. There is no such thing as drag being a good idea unless y= ou are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber. A little Cooling Airf= low around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a good idea.=20 Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7 oil cooler. There is a big mism= atch between the delta P air pressure required between that cooler and your= rad though. Separate ducts would be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler m= ight hog most of the airflow. Even the pressure on the back side of the hea= t exchangers can affect the balance but it sounds like you are going for se= parate outlets so may not be a factor here.=20 Let us know how the project goes!=20 Tracy Crook=20 Sent from my iPad=20 On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >= wrote:=20
Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it. I= 'm designing and building my own design and was wondering what you guys say= is the right size for the water and oil coolers? I plan on p-porting the e= ngine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into= rad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system,= how much volume do i need? I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in no= w that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 in= ches deep. The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular to the airstream = with an adjustable exit ramp. For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99m planning on us= ing a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffuser on the intake= and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I will also have q= uite a bit of airflow around the engine itself. That will probably take the= airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick small airframe that I= think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little= unnecessary drag might be a good thing.=20 Thanks,=20 Will Aldridge=20 Sent from Mail for Windows 10=20 From: Todd Bartrim=20 Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers=20 Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to g= uess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2= days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead= of guessing.=20 =09 Virus-free. www.avast.com=20 Todd Bartrim=20 On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley < flyrotary@lancaironline= .net > wrote:=20
Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting.=20 On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The other w= ater cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air exited the c= ooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down and= out the bottom. It didn't do that.=20 What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air hit = the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was happenin= g during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I constructed a = crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a significant drop in= temps.=20 All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the = flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, = wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that t= urns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick it in various pl= aces under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running.=20 On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim < flyrotary@lancaironline.= net > wrote:=20 I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exchan= ger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different cooling bet= ween oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this heat exchange= r at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase the cooling of = the system as a whole.=20 It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. = So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin wit= h, then this will do nothing to address that.=20 In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL = in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of= room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my o= il temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help me = borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls p= roperly.=20 I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my oil = cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good).=20 Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address impro= per cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also = did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant radiat= or. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's close = proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space require= d for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to = have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets an= d left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed= were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching coo= ling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting is= every bit as important as inlet ducting.=20 The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I bo= ught a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down fro= m 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the accompanyi= ng increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM.=20 So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have an= y benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at = this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just sta= rt jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-)=20 On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, < flyrotary@lancaironline.net > wr= ote:=20
As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about ov= ercooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitude= s or in cold conditions.)=20 An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario.=20 T Mann=20 Sent from Windows Mail=20 =09 Virus-free. www.avast.com=20
------=_Part_60470531_790387710.1503364206330 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the singer was from Texas too,= holy moocows!!!!!  David

From: <= /b>"Bobby J. Hughes" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rot= ary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 11:01:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ecl= ipse viewing?

Reminds me of that song.   Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : )

 

You probably think this emails abo= ut you=E2=80=94don=E2=80=99t you =E2=80=93 don=E2=80=99t you

 

HAHAHAH

 = ;

From:<= /b> Rotar= y motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: = Monday, August 21, 2017 8:01 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing?

 

Anyone else planing to= see from the air?

 

I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard that= a 90 %  eclipse is like sex without a happy ending.  

<= div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">

 

The totality band is about = 300 miles north of me (at my off grid CO shack) so me & M plan to rende= zvous with totality near Casper, WY.   No landing, will watch from air= then return to Salida,CO.  I hear that it might be possible to see th= e approaching/receding  moon shadow at start and end of totality.

<= /div>

 

=

Reminds me of that so= ng.   Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : )


Sent from my iPad


On = Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Will,  &nbs= p;

My rule of thumb for rad core volum= e is between 2 and 3 CI per HP.  At 375 CI you would be on the small s= ide but I think your calculation of CI is off.  Thick rads can be effi= cient but will need more CI. 

&nb= sp;

The needed CI  is of course a= ffected by core design, duct efficiency, aircraft speed, etc.  At 4.5"= thick you should be in at least a 200 mph top speed design, otherwise you = might not have enough diffuser pressure to force the air through.

=

 

Oth= er thoughts:  Airflow around the engine is a waste.  Very little = cooling for a lot of drag.  There is no such thing as drag being a goo= d idea unless you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber.  = A little Cooling Airflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a = good idea.  

 

Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7 oil coo= ler.    There is a big mismatch between the delta P air pressure = required between that cooler and your rad though.  Separate ducts woul= d be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler might hog most of the airflow. &n= bsp; Even the pressure on the back side of the heat exchangers can affect t= he balance but it sounds like you are going for separate outlets so may not= be a factor here.

 

Let us know how the project goes!

 

Tracy Croo= k

   

Sent from my iPad


On = Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Ok I've spent= the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it. I'm designing = and building my own design and was wondering what you guys say is the right= size for the water and oil coolers?  I plan on p-porting the engine s= o am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into rad si= zing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, how mu= ch volume do i need?   I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in no= w that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 in= ches deep.   The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular to the air= stream with an adjustable exit ramp.  For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99m p= lanning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffuser = on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. = I will also have quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself.  Tha= t will probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a sli= ck small airframe that I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in l= evel flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing.

 

Thanks, 

 

Will Aldridge 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Todd Bartrim
Sent: Sunday, A= ugust 20, 2017 4:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coole= rs

 

Another= great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to guess at= what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2 days l= ater we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead of gue= ssing.

 

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tic=

Virus-free. www.avast.com

=


Todd Bartrim

&nb= sp;

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest = Christley <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:

=

Just a point to highlight what Todd was= saying about exit ducting.

 

On the Dyke Del= ta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl.  The other water cool= er and oil cooler were buried in the strakes.  The air exited the cool= er under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down and ou= t the bottom.  It didn't do that.

 

What= it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.  The air hi= t the firewall and then spun around clockwise.  I discovered what was = happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting.  I = constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a signi= ficant drop in temps.

&nb= sp;

All that is to say th= at the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flow outside. Today, = I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mou= nt tubes.  I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that turns my phone i= nto a video surveillance monitor.  I'd stick it in various places unde= r the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running.

 

&nb= sp;

On Sund= ay, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

I didn't crunch any numbers in = my decision to use this Laminova heat exchanger, I only knew that in climb = and level flight I had different cooling between oil & water and figure= d I could balance it out with this heat exchanger at a small price in weigh= t. It certainly doesn't increase the cooling of the system as a whole.

 It should be poi= nted out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. So if a oil/wate= r cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin with, then this wil= l do nothing to address that.

In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to= 10000' ASL in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still h= ad plenty of room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would d= rop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this wo= uld help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling = shortfalls properly.

  I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position = of my oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good).<= /span>

   Now I= have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address improper c= ooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also did o= utlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant radiator. I= did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's close proxi= mity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space required for= a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to have = some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets and lef= t the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed were= adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling = air flows and finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting is ever= y bit as important as inlet ducting.

  The other change I made which I hope will have a = significant effect is I bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO pr= op. I also cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise= speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM.=

So with all these= changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have any benefit but I'm= certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at this point is a f= ew pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just start jogging again.= .. not a bad idea anyways :-)

 

On S= un, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

As a side note to these observations there is something to be said = about overcooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher = altitudes or in cold conditions.)

An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario.

 

T Mann

 

Sent from Windows Mail

 

 

<= /div>

 

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/i=

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

=

 

 


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