X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=An2yBDfv1JzSzSoB+E3YAg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=v3LxZtijEEoA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=NBHN68yZe8034bW8KtQA:9 a=kz4kjEv3-oBShZ2x:21 a=dgRtkJQoaqwjP3sM:21 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=Tr8nuKu5vpAA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=sUPA-lJGhKoUv5FKJgUA:9 a=Jka-YsXRohZ1DIm8:21 a=vXNRL1XiGg6eA0dt:21 a=ZK9lCLcnvX0Lz6bP:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "william Aldridge" Received: from [40.92.11.52] (HELO NAM04-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10031429 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 21:42:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=40.92.11.52; envelope-from=willja67@hotmail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; 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Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:42:33 +0000 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers Thread-Index: AQHTGgeQr0nk4NPj6U6tHtAKxyQBt6KOBvJQ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:42:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: lancaironline.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lancaironline.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:935DD5110D5836933002D040F33BC688513368E708128624F4F982C39A596A5D;UpperCasedChecksum:602AAE8AF626F06644257E017490B30B78C8D8076DF9C4ED24F3D54C584C322D;SizeAsReceived:6885;Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [IYErNWB3HwAn09DEN8MrW3pvU7TqdShF] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;SN1NAM04HT146;6:tv0CRJ5Ho+j3zM3q6lEdTK/d6IWAkM5fyx6cssZE9R+I2Ypf/CM+nv8j/0okWK4NoVaLBv2LEdZLh5tEtbqm0U7bFq+7alhUVTj8c4IzbZVcX36Emx13hTO+ysKGpcx1E7cDVyrW5gb9VVFrDTvp8HYfLnFgTtkHgjNb9Dgy2vjAHfH/lbi6aYjmm2qj9vkSlSy95PPayhl1ZmrItVnwcV0EjwAAlZQ4+WiHHxj3GkpVMhfW+YRbK88lG0Hzp9INB6kuW2t6W5zDcEgkm/Qn95Ld/aWUvBU5QY0QBqsN6n5QyU4Z25SR31djg+hSDsL7b3YQ268TmQoULdve6z2Dqg==;5:5mtPQMZcZrnQHhrYz8D4Q0Sip3li/3t7rb6anPRvTxrp8AKPK+Gqj1nwDVIusVacMzndSF6p+M2HUkhk0Vwd2zZJzRE20mmgsUPiNoYYAV2XJ9QHhwq+HUa0N7KX2E2q5xIQN8+cS4UBD1j9G3srQw==;24:ynmSSwm5LgnN/6qPNr4VR9hJbcTZ+gwqXYYNPWI1EhShbqP8O9xg3CnPKDG8xTajFBVPT3eWE3vqTsMGgRjkyAwNPncB5k85bfwAniK3DqY=;7:9NDW15cii/2UDlfqcG+VbS5JF7osknTxYNAsTY3tuZrsQ2zi00fplB7a2z/HOQyaU93wR6XYhdkPolzpTVVe0G4gM0wicZDNOIGNwl0m5o0ydF44hs1bHPV5/cofjCzacAoe/we1AYcL/vFC/KasW/qozLVgWJwbDmKE8Sk8MLUdh5m3/imsrDMsy9ev2Nce8m6l9jqHLvfTq5b1qCMrCAnWWaALcFL07lUKOR+xfE8= x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(7070007)(98901004);DIR:OUT;SFP:1901;SCL:1;SRVR:SN1NAM04HT146;H:CO2PR16MB0027.namprd16.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:en; 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x-forefront-prvs: 040655413E spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR16MB0027D7B43AC604D5E705DD50DB870CO2PR16MB0027namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Aug 2017 01:42:33.1732 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1NAM04HT146 --_000_CO2PR16MB0027D7B43AC604D5E705DD50DB870CO2PR16MB0027namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it. I= 'm designing and building my own design and was wondering what you guys say= is the right size for the water and oil coolers? I plan on p-porting the = engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go int= o rad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system= , how much volume do i need? I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in= now that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5= inches deep. The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular to the airst= ream with an adjustable exit ramp. For the oil cooler I=92m planning on us= ing a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffuser on the intake= and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I will also have q= uite a bit of airflow around the engine itself. That will probably take th= e airspeed down somewhat but it=92s such a slick small airframe that I thin= k it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little unne= cessary drag might be a good thing. Thanks, Will Aldridge Sent from Mail for Window= s 10 From: Todd Bartrim Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to g= uess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2= days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead= of guessing. [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim= ated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com Todd Bartrim On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley > wrote: Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting. On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The other = water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air exited the= cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down a= nd out the bottom. It didn't do that. What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air hit= the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was happen= ing during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I constructed= a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a significant drop= in temps. All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the = flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, = wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that = turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick it in various = places under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running. On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim > wrote: I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exchan= ger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different cooling bet= ween oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this heat exchange= r at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase the cooling of = the system as a whole. It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers.= So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin wi= th, then this will do nothing to address that. In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL = in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of= room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my o= il temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help me = borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls p= roperly. I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my oi= l cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good). Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address im= proper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I al= so did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant rad= iator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's clo= se proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space requ= ired for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea = to have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets= and left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I belie= ved were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching = cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting= is every bit as important as inlet ducting. The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I = bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down f= rom 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the accompan= ying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM. So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have an= y benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at = this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just sta= rt jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-) On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, > wrote: As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about ov= ercooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitude= s or in cold conditions.) An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario. T Mann Sent from Windows Mail [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim= ated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com --_000_CO2PR16MB0027D7B43AC604D5E705DD50DB870CO2PR16MB0027namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list= and got tired of it. I'm designing and building my own design and was wond= ering what you guys say is the right size for the water and oil coolers? &n= bsp;I plan on p-porting the engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into rad si= zing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, how mu= ch volume do i need?   I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in no= w that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 inches deep.   The water cooler will = be mounted perpendicular to the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp.&nbs= p; For the oil cooler I=92m planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler th= at will use a wedge diffuser on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I will also have = quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself.  That will probably t= ake the airspeed down somewhat but it=92s such a slick small airframe that = I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing. <= o:p>

 

Thanks, 

 

Will Aldridge 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Todd Bartrim
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers

 

Another great example of how tech changes our lives.= Back when, we had to guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few= clicks on Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools = we need to know instead of guessing.

 

3D"https://ipmcdn.ava=

Virus-free= . www.avast.com


Todd Bartrim

 

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley &l= t;flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Just a poi= nt to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting.<= /p>

 = ;

On the Dyk= e Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl.  The other water= cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes.  The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was suppos= ed to go down and out the bottom.  It didn't do that.

 = ;

What it di= d was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.  The air hit the = firewall and then spun around clockwise.  I discovered what was happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting= .  I constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and s= aw a significant drop in temps.

 = ;

All that i= s to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flow outsi= de. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes.  I have a tiny camera w= ith a 15ft cord that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. = ; I'd stick it in various places under the cowl and see how the air flows w= ith the engine running.

 = ;

 

On Sunday, Aug= ust 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

I didn't c= runch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exchanger, I onl= y knew that in climb and level flight I had different cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with th= is heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase= the cooling of the system as a whole.

 It s= hould be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. So i= f a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that.

In my case= I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in 3 minut= es before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would= drop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this = would help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address coolin= g shortfalls properly.

  I b= elieve the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my oil coo= ler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good).

  &nb= sp;Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address im= proper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and r= ight coolant radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator= due to it's close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered wit= h the space required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to have some airf= low over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air= to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed were adequate= sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat i= t into me that exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting.

  The= other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I bough= t a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise= speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM.=

So with al= l these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have any benefit = but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that= I'll just start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-)

 = ;

On Sun, Au= g 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

As a side = note to these observations there is something to be said about overcooling = the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitudes or in cold conditions.)

An oil-to-= coolant system help to moderate that scenario.

 = ;

T Mann

 = ;

Sent from = Windows Mail

 = ;

 = ;

 = ;

3D"https://ipmcdn.ava=

Virus-free= . www.avast.com

 

 

 

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