X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-pg0-f43.google.com ([74.125.83.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9637200 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 16:38:47 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.43; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 21so131273495pgg.1 for ; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=VIFL0sshMj0dIq3/vLU7cehtTu7OVzEsgtoUtjXKvwM=; b=AZdqb2XjwVdNaNCmTdkFqXsOGpkAL3eaMCGgg/19IPO717f7IdR8D9DAdDVKngWk4m 5qjzL27M9J+bhUeIRD/MDYFDoSuFS6yoqtl1w9YxMO+Vy/E+m1HZ/juU6ctSqh/LL7nd sAfhwyl8HZyPdx+X2UFx/rcHOh8a0CwqgKOeoc2R142QFhPdAYJMqnSsVTOdeRfU7BjQ fatKUnERpxxBvLpgEkaj+cN17C5Qu/sAAvpWb7Mkp6hVJ3mgCcvjktnvdq7kosLopPf4 E1DowP1495bmhzsgLMlmhxG1BBmp+Kvv5JFQ8hzuHNCsGv5u5y7RByFGkv+GFatAaX7a Zctg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=VIFL0sshMj0dIq3/vLU7cehtTu7OVzEsgtoUtjXKvwM=; b=tN+/Wi/emzpnP1SiQL2YBdGEVE1isvPNGjbaI/aBn1G7fMXtBQwFwQKIv71nWBHYQ7 YNG6YY4QzX7D0b1t7IhjAZO+y/px3+uqaCRFqK70oX+5zKuSW4bIDSpuWZMoMEvtOE1l n98f23XvjRVLHa95oZZ2XjqwA1f3/8MXGr64lnBEenj6iDaEBUwEiZ8Bf9VPYKHrOegK YGNhsr1UWj0SIrAaPLtkEb/FgxCZYGJyvatzGS1RgcTOc32d7002jshvYUYn/hmxuZM3 YWeff4wl/kbUo9SP9t5bQ2uBCojZQx1oyVJWh0dINh6H2y1kloGIFKbQA52Rvp/Ea6Tj 9bTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H19cDoVxVBhGbLf2W51nV4rYJk8Fk/LNCVRED+CHzUrCBsb8is9Zt26NRpAXM9+F5Y6EJbG+6HNdkYVyQ== X-Received: by 10.99.42.78 with SMTP id q75mr19860985pgq.144.1491251909517; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 13:38:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.156.9 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:38:28 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: : Batteryless Fuel Injection?? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a114693da5689db054c492416 --001a114693da5689db054c492416 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114693da5689d7054c492415 --001a114693da5689d7054c492415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend has run Ellison's on acro a/c in the past, and they do work. But the Ellison, and the Bendix style a/c systems are somewhat and extremely pricey, respectively, and both are pretty hard to 'flow match' to individual combustion chambers. The reason I cross-posted that paragraph is that it *might* have the potential to be 'tuned' more tightly than mechanical injection, and allow a very low power electron system (think something similar to a lawnmower flywheel alt; much smaller than the motorcycle alt that Ernest was running. That would relegate the battery/alternator to backup duty for the engine. SDS now has a system for Lycs with individually tunable cylinder injectors, and early testing has been really impressive on the efficiency front. But again, somewhat pricey, and he doesn't seem interested in setting them up for rotaries. None of the above will be relevant, though, until the mudboat guys and cart racers start releasing chips and programmers for it. Charlie On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: > I don't know what to call it, but my single rotor is running on something > the supplier is calling fuel injection. In reality it is a somewhat > advanced Ellison carburetor. It operates without electricity, has full > mixture control and a primer, which can be used for over riding vapor loc= k > in the fuel lines. So far, I have around 50hrs run time on the ground on > two different engines including 1hr in the air. It may be supplied from a > fuel pump or gravity feed. The engine never have staring problems. The ai= r > time was 3 flights, with the third one ending in a dead stick landing > because of engine overheating. > > The 12A based single rotor flows around 10 GPH of gas at 6300RPM WOT. > > I have not seen a carburetor, during the single rotor development, > performing comparably. > > Hope to be in the air again soon. > > FWIW > > Richard Sohn > > On 4/3/2017 2:44 PM, William Jepson wrote: > > Hi Guys, > Something that might be of interest is that the ORIGINAL Powersport > engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel injection. It required a > fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but used a electric fuel > pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the modern electronic > injection, but can be run without a battery. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley > wrote: > >> Battery, alternator, recoil system =E2=80=93 ultimately there is somethi= ng >> spinning to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel >> injection system. Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I=E2=80=99d li= ke to see a >> purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow =E2= =80=93 do >> away with the redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injectors. >> What we have is great as long as it all has a supply of electricity; hav= ing >> said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> From: >> >> Charlie England >> >> Subject: >> >> Batteryless fuel injection?? >> >> Date: >> >> Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500 >> >> To: >> >> Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> [image: Message Header] >> >> >> [image: Undecoded Message] >> >> >> Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group: >> >> >> >> quote: >> >> Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the moment. >> It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the >> Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block engines: >> >> >> >> *Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) >> engine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offere= d >> in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI system >> developed by Japan=E2=80=99s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability = to be >> operated with either an electric starting system using a battery or a >> recoil starting system. =E2=80=9CThis one is a bit unique,=E2=80=9D Leec= h said. =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s >> completely different than the Delphi system we use on the other engines = in >> that it can work with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a technolo= gy >> that Delphi did not have.=E2=80=9D Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as= it has >> been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things = as >> off-road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy >> generated by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control >> unit (ECU), fuel pump and injectors =E2=80=94 in that order =E2=80=94 to= start the engine. >> The Vanguard small-block engine with recoil start has been specified by = a >> global manufacturer of fire equipment for a portable generator set used = in >> fire and rescue applications* >> >> >> >> I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying apparatus >> circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI wo= uld >> be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'). Unfortunately= , I >> haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to check what components = are >> used in the EFI system. >> :unquote >> >> >> >> These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter >> the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary us= ing >> this system & larger injectors... >> >> >> >> Google search for the FI mfgr: >> >> https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq=3DKokusan&aqs=3Dchrom >> e..69i57&sourceid=3Dchrome&ie=3DUTF-8#q=3DKokusan+fuel+injection&* >> >> >> >> Charlie >> >> >> This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for th= e >> addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any >> unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received thi= s >> message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct ou= r >> internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. >> > > > -- > Richard Sohn > 8029 County HWY 1087 > DeFuniak Springs, FL 32433 > > --001a114693da5689d7054c492415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A friend has run Ellison's on acro a/c in the past, an= d they do work. But the Ellison, and the Bendix style a/c systems are somew= hat and extremely pricey, respectively, and both are pretty hard to 'fl= ow match' to individual combustion chambers. The reason I cross-posted = that paragraph is that it *might* have the potential to be 'tuned' = more tightly than mechanical injection, and allow a very low power electron= system (think something similar to a lawnmower flywheel alt; much smaller = than the motorcycle alt that Ernest was running. That would relegate the ba= ttery/alternator to backup duty for the engine.

SDS now = has a system for Lycs with individually tunable cylinder injectors, and ear= ly testing has been really impressive on the efficiency front. But again, s= omewhat pricey, and he doesn't seem interested in setting them up for r= otaries.=C2=A0

None of the above will be relevant,= though, until the mudboat guys and cart racers start releasing chips and p= rogrammers for it.=C2=A0

Charlie

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at = 3:19 PM, Richard Sohn <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

I don't know what to call it, but my single rotor is running on something the supplier is calling fuel injection. In reality it is a somewhat advanced Ellison carburetor. It operates without electricity, has full mixture control and a primer, which can be used for over riding vapor lock in the fuel lines. So far, I have around 50hrs run time on the ground on two different engines including 1hr in the air. It may be supplied from a fuel pump or gravity feed. The engine never have staring problems. The air time was 3 flights, with the third one ending in a dead stick landing because of engine overheating.

The 12A based single rotor flows around 10 GPH of gas at 6300RPM WOT.

I have not seen a carburetor, during the single rotor development, performing comparably.

Hope to be in the air again soon.

FWIW

Richard Sohn


On 4/3/2017 2:44 PM= , William Jepson wrote:
Hi Guys,
Something that might be of interest is that the ORIGINAL Powersport engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel injection. It required a fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but used a electric fuel pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the modern electronic injection, but can be run without a battery.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Batter= y, alternator, recoil system =E2=80=93 ultimately there is something spinning to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel injection system.=C2=A0 Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I=E2=80=99d like= to see a purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow =E2=80=93 do away with the redun= dant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injectors.=C2=A0 Wh= at we have is great as long as it all has a supply of electricity; having said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment.

Jeff

=C2=A0=

From:

Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

Batteryless fuel injection??

Date:

Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>

3D"Message

3D"Unde=

Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group= :

=C2=A0

quote:

Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the moment. It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block engines:

=C2=A0

Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) engine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI system developed by Japan=E2=80= =99s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability to be operated with either an electric starting system using a battery or a recoil starting system. =E2=80=9CThis one is = a bit unique,=E2=80=9D Leech said. =E2=80=9CIt=E2= =80=99s completely different than the Delphi system we use on the other engines in that it can work with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a technology that Delphi did not have.=E2=80=9D Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as it has been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things as off-road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), fuel pump and injectors =E2=80=94 in that order =E2=80= =94 to start the engine. The Vanguard small-block engine with recoil start has been specified by a global manufacturer of fire equipment for a portable generator set used in fire and rescue applications

=C2=A0

I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying =C2=A0apparatus circles. If the EFI = is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI would be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to check what components are used in the EFI system.
:unquote

=C2=A0

These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter the 90* timing to th= e rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for = a rotary using this system & larger injectors...

=C2=A0

Google search for the FI mfgr:

https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq=3DKokusan&aqs=3Dchrome..69i57&sourceid= =3Dchrome&ie=3DUTF-8#q=3DKokusan+fuel+injection&*

=C2=A0

Charlie

=C2=A0=

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. 


--=20
Richard Sohn
8029 County HWY 1087
DeFuniak Springs, FL 32433

--001a114693da5689d7054c492415-- --001a114693da5689db054c492416 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: b768688ede68cf4_0.1.1 PGh0bWw+DQogIDxoZWFkPg0KICAgIDxtZXRhIGNvbnRlbnQ9InRleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNldD11 dGYtOCIgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIj4NCiAgPC9oZWFkPg0KICA8Ym9keSBiZ2Nv bG9yPSIjRkZGRkZGIiB0ZXh0PSIjMDAwMDAwIj4NCiAgICBXaWxsIGRvITxicj4NCiAgICA8YnI+ DQogICAgUmljaGFyZDxicj4NCiAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgPGRpdiBjbGFzcz0ibW96LWNpdGUtcHJl Zml4Ij5PbiAzLzEvMjAxNiAxMjowNiBQTSwgTGF1cmEgTWFydGluDQogICAgICB3cm90ZTo8YnI+ DQogICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgPGJsb2NrcXVvdGUNCmNpdGU9Im1pZDpDQVA1UVdXMlAzUDJKcnVO bTNYRl9UQWZrWm83NFdPaGlhM1ZkLVdVZVlnMEdEMldfRXdAbWFpbC5nbWFpbC5jb20iDQogICAg ICB0eXBlPSJjaXRlIj4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXYgZGlyPSJsdHIiPg0KICAgICAgICA8ZGl2Pg0KICAg ICAgICAgIDxkaXY+DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8ZGl2PkhlbGxvIFJpY2hhcmQsPGJyPg0KICAgICAg ICAgICAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIFBsZWFzZSBEcm9w IFNoaXDCoCA1WCBSWC04IEFkYXB0ZXJzIHdpdGggbm8gcGFwZXIgd29yayB0bzxicj4NCiAgICAg ICAgICAgIDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIERhbmllbCBNYXJ0aWNlbGxvPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAg ICAgMjcwIFJlYmVsIEN0PGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgQmVhdmVyY3JlZWsgT0ggNDU0MzQ8YnI+ DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICAgICAgVGhhbmsgWW91 LDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICAgIERvbWluaWPCoCBSQTxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxs Ij4NCiAgICAgICAgPGRpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8ZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj4NCiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj48YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLS0gPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIDxkaXYgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3NpZ25hdHVyZSI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8 ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICA8ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIj48Yj5MSUtFIHVzIG9uIEZBQ0VCT09LwqAgPGENCiAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiDQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5mYWNlYm9vay5jb20vcm90YXJ5YXZp YXRpb24iDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPjxhIGNs YXNzPSJtb3otdHh0LWxpbmstYWJicmV2aWF0ZWQiIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZmFjZWJvb2su Y29tL3JvdGFyeWF2aWF0aW9uIj53d3cuZmFjZWJvb2suY29tL3JvdGFyeWF2aWF0aW9uPC9hPjwv YT48L2I+PGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj48YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIExhdXJhIENoYXNlIE1hcnRpbjxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgUmVhbCBXb3JsZCBTb2x1dGlvbnMgSW5jPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICBIb21lIG9mIFJBIENsYXNzaWMgYW5kIFJBIFN1cGVyIFNlYWxzPGJyPg0KICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8YSBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiDQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5yb3RhcnlhdmlhdGlvbi5jb20iDQog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPnd3dy5yb3Rhcnlhdmlh dGlvbi5jb208L2E+IDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNjE1LzI0Ni0xNDEx PGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA4MTMvNDIyLTI3MzMgY2VsbDxicj4NCiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2 Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0K ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAg IDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0K ICAgIDwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCiAgICA8YnI+DQogIDwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg0K --001a114693da5689db054c492416 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: b768688ede68cf4_0.1.2 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --001a114693da5689db054c492416--