X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Richard Sohn" Received: from smtp687.redcondor.net ([208.80.206.87] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9637079 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 16:20:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.80.206.87; envelope-from=res12@fairpoint.net Received: from mailproxy1.av-mx.com ([137.118.16.133]) by smtp687.redcondor.net ({f50aeeea-7a14-4dd3-bdda-1246754c15b3}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20170403201959191_0687 for ; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 20:19:59 +0000 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from [192.168.2.6] (dflo-66-243-231-5.gtcom.net [66.243.231.5]) (Authenticated sender: res12@fairpoint.net) by mailproxy1.av-mx.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A540B88A038 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: : Batteryless Fuel Injection?? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <3a5fa3e8-b000-bc11-bd8b-7b06904a1cbd@fairpoint.net> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:19:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BE3432F5CB32144B241216C0" X-MAG-OUTBOUND: greymail.redcondor.net@137.118.16/24 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE3432F5CB32144B241216C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know what to call it, but my single rotor is running on something the supplier is calling fuel injection. In reality it is a somewhat advanced Ellison carburetor. It operates without electricity, has full mixture control and a primer, which can be used for over riding vapor lock in the fuel lines. So far, I have around 50hrs run time on the ground on two different engines including 1hr in the air. It may be supplied from a fuel pump or gravity feed. The engine never have staring problems. The air time was 3 flights, with the third one ending in a dead stick landing because of engine overheating. The 12A based single rotor flows around 10 GPH of gas at 6300RPM WOT. I have not seen a carburetor, during the single rotor development, performing comparably. Hope to be in the air again soon. FWIW Richard Sohn On 4/3/2017 2:44 PM, William Jepson wrote: > Hi Guys, > Something that might be of interest is that the ORIGINAL Powersport > engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel injection. It > required a fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but used a > electric fuel pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the > modern electronic injection, but can be run without a battery. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley > > wrote: > > Battery, alternator, recoil system – ultimately there is something > spinning to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent > fuel injection system. Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I’d > like to see a purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with > gravity fuel flow – do away with the redundant (electric) fuel > pumps, 4 (electric) injectors. What we have is great as long as > it all has a supply of electricity; having said that I would not > be without a battery in the present environment. > > Jeff > > From: > > > > Charlie England > > > Subject: > > > > Batteryless fuel injection?? > > Date: > > > > Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500 > > To: > > > > Rotary motors in aircraft > > > > > Message Header > > > Undecoded Message > > > Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group: > > quote: > > Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the > moment. It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely > different to the Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block engines: > > /Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 > cc) engine, with an initial application in fire and rescue > equipment. Offered in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine > incorporates an open-loop EFI system developed by Japan’s Kokusan > Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability to be operated with either an > electric starting system using a battery or a recoil starting > system. “This one is a bit unique,” Leech said. “It’s completely > different than the Delphi system we use on the other engines in > that it can work with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a > technology that Delphi did not have.” Batteryless EFI itself is > not new, as it has been a staple on small two- and four-stroke > engines used on such things as off-road motorcycles and > snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated by the pull > of the recoil starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), fuel > pump and injectors — in that order — to start the engine. The > Vanguard small-block engine with recoil start has been specified > by a global manufacturer of fire equipment for a portable > generator set used in fire and rescue applications/ > > I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying > apparatus circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow > meter, the EFI would be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ > meters (10,000'). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source a > parts manual yet to check what components are used in the EFI system. > :unquote > > These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to > alter the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for > a rotary using this system & larger injectors... > > Google search for the FI mfgr: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=Kokusan&oq=Kokusan&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Kokusan+fuel+injection&* > > > Charlie > > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only > for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential > information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this message in error, please notify us > immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please > then delete the original message. Thank you. > > -- Richard Sohn 8029 County HWY 1087 DeFuniak Springs, FL 32433 --------------BE3432F5CB32144B241216C0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------CB5BDBD8E3E3C3E0C6B8AD8E" --------------CB5BDBD8E3E3C3E0C6B8AD8E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I don't know what to call it, but my single rotor is running on something the supplier is calling fuel injection. In reality it is a somewhat advanced Ellison carburetor. It operates without electricity, has full mixture control and a primer, which can be used for over riding vapor lock in the fuel lines. So far, I have around 50hrs run time on the ground on two different engines including 1hr in the air. It may be supplied from a fuel pump or gravity feed. The engine never have staring problems. The air time was 3 flights, with the third one ending in a dead stick landing because of engine overheating.

The 12A based single rotor flows around 10 GPH of gas at 6300RPM WOT.

I have not seen a carburetor, during the single rotor development, performing comparably.

Hope to be in the air again soon.

FWIW

Richard Sohn


On 4/3/2017 2:44 PM, William Jepson wrote:
Hi Guys,
Something that might be of interest is that the ORIGINAL Powersport engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel injection. It required a fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but used a electric fuel pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the modern electronic injection, but can be run without a battery.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Battery, alternator, recoil system – ultimately there is something spinning to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel injection system.  Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I’d like to see a purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow – do away with the redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injectors.  What we have is great as long as it all has a supply of electricity; having said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment.

Jeff

 

From:

Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

Batteryless fuel injection??

Date:

Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Message Header

Undecoded Message

Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group:

 

quote:

Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the moment. It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block engines:

 

Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) engine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI system developed by Japan’s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability to be operated with either an electric starting system using a battery or a recoil starting system. “This one is a bit unique,” Leech said. “It’s completely different than the Delphi system we use on the other engines in that it can work with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a technology that Delphi did not have.” Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as it has been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things as off-road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), fuel pump and injectors — in that order — to start the engine. The Vanguard small-block engine with recoil start has been specified by a global manufacturer of fire equipment for a portable generator set used in fire and rescue applications

 

I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying  apparatus circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI would be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to check what components are used in the EFI system.
:unquote

 

These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary using this system & larger injectors...

 

Google search for the FI mfgr:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kokusan&oq=Kokusan&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Kokusan+fuel+injection&*

 

Charlie

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. 


-- 
Richard Sohn
8029 County HWY 1087
DeFuniak Springs, FL 32433
--------------CB5BDBD8E3E3C3E0C6B8AD8E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: PGh0bWw+DQogIDxoZWFkPg0KICAgIDxtZXRhIGNvbnRlbnQ9InRleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNl dD11dGYtOCIgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIj4NCiAgPC9oZWFkPg0KICA8Ym9k eSBiZ2NvbG9yPSIjRkZGRkZGIiB0ZXh0PSIjMDAwMDAwIj4NCiAgICBXaWxsIGRvITxicj4N CiAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgUmljaGFyZDxicj4NCiAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgPGRpdiBjbGFzcz0i bW96LWNpdGUtcHJlZml4Ij5PbiAzLzEvMjAxNiAxMjowNiBQTSwgTGF1cmEgTWFydGluDQog ICAgICB3cm90ZTo8YnI+DQogICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgPGJsb2NrcXVvdGUNCmNpdGU9Im1p ZDpDQVA1UVdXMlAzUDJKcnVObTNYRl9UQWZrWm83NFdPaGlhM1ZkLVdVZVlnMEdEMldfRXdA bWFpbC5nbWFpbC5jb20iDQogICAgICB0eXBlPSJjaXRlIj4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXYgZGlyPSJs dHIiPg0KICAgICAgICA8ZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgIDxkaXY+DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8ZGl2 PkhlbGxvIFJpY2hhcmQsPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8 L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIFBsZWFzZSBEcm9wIFNoaXDCoCA1WCBSWC04IEFkYXB0ZXJz IHdpdGggbm8gcGFwZXIgd29yayB0bzxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAg ICAgIERhbmllbCBNYXJ0aWNlbGxvPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgMjcwIFJlYmVsIEN0PGJy Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgQmVhdmVyY3JlZWsgT0ggNDU0MzQ8YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICA8 YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICAgICAgVGhhbmsgWW91LDxicj4NCiAgICAg ICAgPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICAgIERvbWluaWPCoCBSQTxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj4NCiAgICAg ICAgPGRpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8ZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj4NCiAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgPGRpdj48YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLS0gPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIDxkaXYgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3NpZ25hdHVyZSI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8 ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPGRpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA8ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIj48Yj5MSUtFIHVzIG9uIEZBQ0VCT09LwqAgPGEN CiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiDQog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5mYWNlYm9vay5j b20vcm90YXJ5YXZpYXRpb24iDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgdGFyZ2V0 PSJfYmxhbmsiPjxhIGNsYXNzPSJtb3otdHh0LWxpbmstYWJicmV2aWF0ZWQiIGhyZWY9Imh0 dHA6Ly93d3cuZmFjZWJvb2suY29tL3JvdGFyeWF2aWF0aW9uIj53d3cuZmFjZWJvb2suY29t L3JvdGFyeWF2aWF0aW9uPC9hPjwvYT48L2I+PGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgPGRpdj48YnI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIExhdXJhIENoYXNlIE1h cnRpbjxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgUmVhbCBXb3JsZCBTb2x1dGlv bnMgSW5jPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBIb21lIG9mIFJBIENsYXNz aWMgYW5kIFJBIFN1cGVyIFNlYWxzPGJyPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8 YSBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg aHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5yb3RhcnlhdmlhdGlvbi5jb20iDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPnd3dy5yb3RhcnlhdmlhdGlvbi5jb208L2E+ IDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNjE1LzI0Ni0xNDExPGJyPg0KICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA4MTMvNDIyLTI3MzMgY2VsbDxicj4NCiAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0K ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0K ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgICAg ICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICA8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgIDwv ZGl2Pg0KICAgIDwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCiAgICA8YnI+DQogIDwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4N Cg0K --------------CB5BDBD8E3E3C3E0C6B8AD8E Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAA fwAAqgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/ fwB/qgB/1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoA fyoAqioA1CoqACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/ fyp/qip/1CqqACqqKiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUA f1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUqVVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/ f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWqf1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8A f38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38qqn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/ f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoA f6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpVAKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/ f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrUKqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQA f9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRVVdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/ f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTUf9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYm JjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zMzNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCg pICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHD hAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZAADs= --------------CB5BDBD8E3E3C3E0C6B8AD8E-- --------------BE3432F5CB32144B241216C0--