X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "William Jepson" Received: from mail-vk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9636849 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:45:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-vk0-f52.google.com with SMTP id z204so151853997vkd.1 for ; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 12:45:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IYqw85/fIvPDqUy3BCCB3oYfhNUIDuukusLs02ot/t0=; b=ma2VmIDpqA9/IxtrHaJ3izOn91TYHF1wTxUqQgkQTVwQgrZBRUryW4smVngFzTzAc6 bzPRrJVuTBFH8oWpswB8Uizdk4cBAAPnD28biWSmQYZYioDZbX/QIo6G2eteXXRWaI+r vIbr+JBebu4sjEhGOUAdiG91ctBMZYMoeKmEhG2w2qaQ1rhctP0Q9edRc5Jxmh71dhCC XxFc442BhIWluSd3QuidgeueSJ9tn0U3HKvBI2LTU+5s3amEvlQJn8wujf65DGvBgBYT p4AKveuXYcKN/LbmhehvlXd0dZHi+PHwZ9vAeXm5KIwgCEQQFYmfiTG/LvX4xX5O7mB3 s8Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=IYqw85/fIvPDqUy3BCCB3oYfhNUIDuukusLs02ot/t0=; b=ENItuEGnAj8pPx+beYmsEXGRX7PX5TstP6NWcnQKkKtPLCuR8hRiIvv38gIPBnlCAP eIXz+Nb/ue5dW/hjHFgTnTtLAg6mILiR5VvYH1whISu3NsLK2D9p9idwIBOjd1ZwFLH+ 0s+qAK4I8Z4SCXVLfEAbmC9APweO2vjSif19Fw+lzZtl4KHCjmcNRWIPdjbbwfNKqfmh 1r2IxYIceDaSGB0aV+1eU8+r5+oEb2S38wyMdDTy58pTlYLHV0dZhovCaNCGEz4LC8Om WGUPg7vFrNCJrg2Ag+SgQhbUIzr7RaI1Vfo31lR2H72V70b9WFgnUcb1Qx+YirTTfLIo gU3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H07FON6Qfz4lwwCEJ3C/D1cJ5YRJAZnDpzEDgs6r+9pDtqy2LV6VkMkkDINBJQEv1ccW3cQgDwZunXJVQ== X-Received: by 10.31.178.79 with SMTP id b76mr7042110vkf.104.1491248696883; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.138.197 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:44:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: : Batteryless Fuel Injection?? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a11430e3edbb2bc054c4864d7 --001a11430e3edbb2bc054c4864d7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11430e3edbb2b8054c4864d6 --001a11430e3edbb2b8054c4864d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys, Something that might be of interest is that the ORIGINAL Powersport engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel injection. It required a fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but used a electric fuel pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the modern electronic injection, but can be run without a battery. Bill Jepson On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: > Battery, alternator, recoil system =E2=80=93 ultimately there is somethin= g > spinning to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel > injection system. Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I=E2=80=99d lik= e to see a > purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow =E2=80= =93 do > away with the redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injectors. > What we have is great as long as it all has a supply of electricity; havi= ng > said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment. > > Jeff > > > > From: > > Charlie England > > Subject: > > Batteryless fuel injection?? > > Date: > > Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500 > > To: > > Rotary motors in aircraft > > [image: Message Header] > > > [image: Undecoded Message] > > > Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group: > > > > quote: > > Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the moment. > It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the > Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block engines: > > > > *Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) > engine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered > in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI system > developed by Japan=E2=80=99s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability t= o be > operated with either an electric starting system using a battery or a > recoil starting system. =E2=80=9CThis one is a bit unique,=E2=80=9D Leech= said. =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s > completely different than the Delphi system we use on the other engines i= n > that it can work with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a technolog= y > that Delphi did not have.=E2=80=9D Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as = it has > been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things a= s > off-road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy > generated by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control > unit (ECU), fuel pump and injectors =E2=80=94 in that order =E2=80=94 to = start the engine. > The Vanguard small-block engine with recoil start has been specified by a > global manufacturer of fire equipment for a portable generator set used i= n > fire and rescue applications* > > > > I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying apparatus > circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI wou= ld > be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'). Unfortunately,= I > haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to check what components a= re > used in the EFI system. > :unquote > > > > These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter > the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary usi= ng > this system & larger injectors... > > > > Google search for the FI mfgr: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq=3DKokusan&aqs=3D > chrome..69i57&sourceid=3Dchrome&ie=3DUTF-8#q=3DKokusan+fuel+injection&* > > > > Charlie > > > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the > addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any > unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our > internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. > --001a11430e3edbb2b8054c4864d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Guys,
Something that might be of interest is that t= he ORIGINAL Powersport engines were setup with Airflow performance fuel inj= ection. It required a fuel pump (which could be mechanically driven) but us= ed a electric fuel pump. Works very well. Not quite as accurate as the mode= rn electronic injection, but can be run without a battery.
Bill J= epson

= On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Battery, alternator, r= ecoil system =E2=80=93 ultimately there is something spinning to create ele= ctricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel injection system.=C2=A0 Pe= rsonally, with a high-wing aircraft, I=E2=80=99d like to see a purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow = =E2=80=93 do away with the redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) in= jectors.=C2=A0 What we have is great as long as it all has a supply of elec= tricity; having said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment.

Jeff

=C2=A0

From:=

Charlie England <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>

Subject:<= /u>

Batteryless fuel in= jection??

Date:=

Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:= 10:26 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in ai= rcraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

3D"Message

3D"Undecoded=

Just saw this on a = 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group:

=C2=A0

quote:

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif&= quot;;color:windowtext">Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a b= it sketchy at the moment. It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block en= gines:

=C2=A0

Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) e= ngine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI = system developed by Japan=E2=80=99s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the abil= ity to be operated with either an electric starting system using a battery = or a recoil starting system. =E2=80=9CThis one is a bit unique,=E2=80=9D Leech said. =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s completely differ= ent than the Delphi system we use on the other engines in that it can work = with a battery or without. Kokusan developed a technology that Delphi did n= ot have.=E2=80=9D Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as it has been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things as off-= road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated = by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), f= uel pump and injectors =E2=80=94 in that order =E2=80=94 to start the engine. The Vanguard small-block engine with = recoil start has been specified by a global manufacturer of fire equipment = for a portable generator set used in fire and rescue applications

=C2=A0

I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying =C2=A0apparatus= circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI would be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'= ). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to c= heck what components are used in the EFI system.
:unquote

=C2=A0

These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to a= lter the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary using this system & larger injectors...

=C2=A0

Google search for the FI mfgr:

https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq=3D= Kokusan&aqs=3Dchrome..69i57&sourceid=3Dchrome&ie=3DUT= F-8#q=3DKokusan+fuel+injection&*

=C2=A0

Charlie=

=C2=A0

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you.

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