X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Jeff Whaley" Received: from hub026-NJ-5.exch026.serverdata.net ([206.225.166.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9635826 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Apr 2017 10:45:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.225.166.168; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from MBX026-E1-NJ-2.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.52]) by HUB026-NJ-5.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:45:08 -0700 To: Charlie England Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] : Batteryless Fuel Injection?? Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] : Batteryless Fuel Injection?? Thread-Index: AQHSqs7xOKJqbrIgXUm+Q2m+te9JNqGzuEVg Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 14:45:07 +0000 Message-ID: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7@mbx026-e1-nj-2.exch026.domain.local> References: <8a6c7d36-ebe3-7297-40d0-acc9c0b30e81@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8a6c7d36-ebe3-7297-40d0-acc9c0b30e81@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [209.87.232.162] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_" --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Battery, alternator, recoil system - ultimately there is something spinning= to create electricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel injection sy= stem. Personally, with a high-wing aircraft, I'd like to see a purely mech= anical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow - do away with the = redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injectors. What we have is g= reat as long as it all has a supply of electricity; having said that I woul= d not be without a battery in the present environment. Jeff From: Charlie England Subject: Batteryless fuel injection?? Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:10:26 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] Just saw this on a 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group: quote: Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a bit sketchy at the moment. It= is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the Delphi= EFI on the 810 and the big block engines: Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) engine,= with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered in a 23 = gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI system developed = by Japan's Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the ability to be operated with e= ither an electric starting system using a battery or a recoil starting syst= em. "This one is a bit unique," Leech said. "It's completely different than= the Delphi system we use on the other engines in that it can work with a b= attery or without. Kokusan developed a technology that Delphi did not have.= " Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as it has been a staple on small two- = and four-stroke engines used on such things as off-road motorcycles and sno= wmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated by the pull of the recoi= l starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), fuel pump and injectors -= in that order - to start the engine. The Vanguard small-block engine with = recoil start has been specified by a global manufacturer of fire equipment = for a portable generator set used in fire and rescue applications I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying apparatus circles= . If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI would be ful= ly altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'). Unfortunately, I haven= 't been able to source a parts manual yet to check what components are used= in the EFI system. :unquote These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter th= e 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary using t= his system & larger injectors... Google search for the FI mfgr: https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq=3DKokusan&aqs=3Dchrome..69i57&= sourceid=3Dchrome&ie=3DUTF-8#q=3DKokusan+fuel+injection&* Charlie This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Battery, alternator, r= ecoil system – ultimately there is something spinning to create elect= ricity to drive an electrically-dependent fuel injection system.  Pers= onally, with a high-wing aircraft, I’d like to see a purely mechanical fuel injection system fed with gravity fuel flow &= #8211; do away with the redundant (electric) fuel pumps, 4 (electric) injec= tors.  What we have is great as long as it all has a supply of electri= city; having said that I would not be without a battery in the present environment.

Jeff=

 

From:

Charlie England <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:=

Batteryless fuel in= jection??

Date:

Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:= 10:26 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in ai= rcraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

3D"Message<= br>
3D"Undecoded

Just saw this on a = 'small 4stroke engine' (aviation) group:

 

quote:

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif&= quot;;color:windowtext">Hi, the info from B&S for the EFI system is a b= it sketchy at the moment. It is an open-loop system from Kokusan and completely different to the Delphi EFI on the 810 and the big block en= gines:

 

Vanguard has also developed a horizontal shaft small-block (627 cc) e= ngine, with an initial application in fire and rescue equipment. Offered in a 23 gross hp rating, the engine incorporates an open-loop EFI = system developed by Japan’s Kokusan Denki Co. Ltd. and has the abilit= y to be operated with either an electric starting system using a battery or= a recoil starting system. “This one is a bit unique,” Leech said. “It’s completely different th= an the Delphi system we use on the other engines in that it can work with a= battery or without. Kokusan developed a technology that Delphi did not hav= e.” Batteryless EFI itself is not new, as it has been a staple on small two- and four-stroke engines used on such things as off-= road motorcycles and snowmobiles. The Kokusan system uses energy generated = by the pull of the recoil starter to power the engine control unit (ECU), f= uel pump and injectors — in that order — to start the engine. The Vanguard small-block engine with re= coil start has been specified by a global manufacturer of fire equipment fo= r a portable generator set used in fire and rescue applications<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif&= quot;;color:windowtext">

 

I bet that will create quite some interest in the flying  apparatus= circles. If the EFI is using a MAP sensor or mass flow meter, the EFI would be fully altitude-compensating to 3,000+ meters (10,000'= ). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source a parts manual yet to check= what components are used in the EFI system.
:unquote

 

These are V-twins. Might be interesting to see if there's a way to alter= the 90* timing to the rotary's 180 & deliver enough fuel for a rotary using this system & larger injectors...=

 

Google search for the FI mfgr:

https://www.google.com/search?q=3DKokusan&oq= =3DKokusan&aqs=3Dchrome..69i57&sourceid=3Dchrome&ie=3DUTF-8#q= =3DKokusan+fuel+injection&*

 

Charlie=

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_-- --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Description: image001.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.gif"; size=849; creation-date="Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:45:06 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:45:06 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Description: image002.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image002.gif"; size=857; creation-date="Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:45:06 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:45:06 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48F77DE7mbx026e1nj2exch_--