X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Kelly Troyer" Received: from mail-oi0-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9606455 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 17:38:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.53; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi0-f53.google.com with SMTP id r203so1238652oib.3 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:38:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NwW/YtGnYp2zMLcJbtmc13Q+WKHJmJRuDbCPbgNzMs4=; b=QFziikB3enEs+1gRfeB9kyNSvUmDR3++RZqiLn3KNnR3xc2QYUZkGzK9aGkB9mpFFD vcXjugeYqoxclnfPloSAhntHnoSueauBC3Wl0cPi8p78Ctz7wPGcDXSSyDrNjXW0ocJP FxQY3JBLZLCSh4lO1InEcjYXwLbcyf6fofnzorO965+QFEhTQob9bX+Y7PHhwnZHV2jC Qjc0GOrDkaaawcM8tX4m5Ly2Zc0hQe5ZviZk81nHnSoqOgcosCTYaz3JWoLu8GHMfO9p q0V99ljc53bhjTbncyrKPffYaNZRiIq6m/eAbnj5ukNru95qiQEK5p3RhLP1U7lcdIW/ uJvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=NwW/YtGnYp2zMLcJbtmc13Q+WKHJmJRuDbCPbgNzMs4=; b=N8LuBsoscmIi0CBHsTCnNhNhp9sEsEj+D4fzbrzDR6i1nxEzDKx35gF+ecp73QUCuV 7gnVtJnR8E1ZMTb2HxI7p17HgscsAxIgNe5zk4XHJnLUF0jwTqH/NUz0JABp8vP6eKym EV2/95R3ad5/MQlmVJhbwLG7xq6EkRO/33k273YnVgpSvFLh/kewlF/CHSze3YALlEui osnrL2X1dmSJpYp36bIHMljaufygaP7wkzNHc3Yvp7xKnyPPjk5e9JOoZZJDmEbUkBqj X6B+6AODLuBvX3MbyOc8f2gzd07wu7+01wa6iLwT5yeGz20CQvQr/twERUYh7T75OH6G 01LA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2nIeinyXCr6yqpZ/rTwKWpBPXTlzpw7LGexhGCrWjxBbVjLkz1OF9yUDzvCoDzf2bx5hQxaO/gGsAYlQ== X-Received: by 10.202.0.141 with SMTP id 135mr5284831oia.166.1490391499440; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.59.196 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:38:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:38:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1137a09ae686f7054b80cfd3 --001a1137a09ae686f7054b80cfd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks Steve , That is the info I wanted to know !!.............. Kelly troyer On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Steven W. Boese < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Kelly, > The fittings were offset such as for: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluidyne-Fluid-Cooler-DB-30618-/391292958560 > > Steve Boese > > On Mar 24, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Kelly Troyer > wrote: > > Steve, > Were the -10 fittings on your DB 30618 straight across from each each > other or were they offset (one end high and the other end lower) > as I am trying to ascertain what the difference is between the two > versions other than price........The NASCAR version is about $60.00 > higher in price.??............. > > Thanks, > Kelly troyer > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Steven W. Boese < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Kelly, >> >> >> The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3.0" deep >> and is single pass. It had -10 fittings on each end which I cut off and >> replaced with -8 fittings. >> >> >> It is probably overkill. >> >> >> Steve >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on >> behalf of Kelly Troyer >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >> >> Steve, >> I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........One call >> a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00) >> and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not >> Say)........Which are you using ??........... >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boese < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler. Removing >>> the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter what >>> the temperature of the oil is. The pressure at the inlet to the oil cooler >>> would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM. >>> Without oil being forced to flow through the core, however, the cooling >>> effectiveness would be greatly reduced. I have not set up the oil cooler >>> this way. >>> >>> >>> It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the >>> bypass with a bolt and nut. This prevents the hot oil from flowing through >>> the bypass and mixing with the oil cooled by the core. Only the cooled oil >>> will exit the oil cooler then. The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would >>> reach 150 psi at lower RPM with this set up. I've tried this setup but >>> didn't make pressure measurements on it. >>> >>> >>> I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double pass >>> by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal >>> connections and removing the thermostat. The inlet pressure reached 150 >>> psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified cooler with the >>> thermostat installed. This demonstrated the restrictive nature of the RX7 >>> core. >>> >>> >>> Steve Boese >>> RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on >>> behalf of hoursaway1 >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM >>> >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >>> >>> Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same pressure >>> build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, I'm >>> thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary >>> ,MI >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From: *"Steven W. Boese" >>> *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> *Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM >>> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >>> >>> >>> Andrew, >>> >>> >>> A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane. >>> >>> >>> When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover >>> outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM >>> to 150 psi at 2800 RPM. Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a steady >>> pressure at 150 psi. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, >>> additional oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through the relief valve into >>> the sump. At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows >>> through the oil cooler. >>> >>> >>> With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches >>> 150 psi so all of the oil passes through it. >>> >>> >>> An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various >>> oil cooler configurations that I tested. >>> >>> >>> Steve Boese >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on >>> behalf of Andrew Martin >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >>> >>> >>> This thread has perfect timing and great info for me. >>> >>> I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks >>> like every system is a compromise. >>> I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump >>> tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was >>> I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread >>> though I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and >>> just not let anyone else on the controls. >>> Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. >>> Need some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or >>> feed problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from >>> sump to fuel selectors for a visual clue. >>> I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not >>> needed but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps >>> happened to fail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to >>> sump also. >>> I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system >>> but there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not >>> circulating fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small >>> when fuel flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump. >>> >>> Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. >>> I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new >>> belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never >>> thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that >>> the front relief valve is opening? >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > --001a1137a09ae686f7054b80cfd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Steve , That is the info I wanted to know !!.......= .......

Kelly troyer
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Kelly,
The fittings were offset such as for:


On Mar 24, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:

Steve,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Were the -10 fittings on your DB 30618 straight across f= rom each each other or were they offset (one end high and the other end low= er)
as I am trying to ascertain what the difference is between the two ver= sions other than price........The NASCAR version is about $60.00 =C2=A0
higher in price.??.............

Thanks,
Kelly troyer

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly,


The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3= .0" deep and is single pass.=C2=A0 It had -10 fittings on each end whi= ch I cut off and replaced with -8 fittings.


It is probably overkill.


Steve

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; on behalf of Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0
Steve,
=C2=A0I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........O= ne call a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00)
and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not Say).......= .Which are you using ??...........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,


The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler.=C2=A0 Remov= ing the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter = what the temperature of the oil is.=C2=A0 The pressure at the inlet to the = oil cooler would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM.=C2=A0 Without oil being forced to flo= w through the core, however,=C2=A0the cooling effectiveness would be greatl= y reduced.=C2=A0 I have not=C2=A0set up=C2=A0the oil cooler this way.


It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypas= s with a bolt and nut.=C2=A0 This=C2=A0prevents the=C2=A0hot oil from flowi= ng through the bypass and mixing with the oil=C2=A0cooled=C2=A0by=C2=A0the = core.=C2=A0 Only the cooled oil will exit the oil cooler then.=C2=A0 The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach 150 psi at lower RPM with thi= s set up.=C2=A0 I've=C2=A0tried this setup but didn't make pressure= measurements on it.


I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double p= ass by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal = connections and removing the thermostat.=C2=A0 The inlet pressure reached 1= 50 psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the=C2=A0unmodified cooler with the thermostat installed.=C2=A0 This demon= strated the restrictive nature of the RX7 core.

=C2=A0

Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2


From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> on behalf of hoursaway1 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0
Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for=C2=A0that same press= ure build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, = I'm thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook=C2=A0 = RV6A Rotary ,MI

From: "Steven W. Boese" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review


Andrew,


A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane= .


When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover = outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM = to 150 psi at 2800 RPM.=C2=A0 Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a stead= y pressure at 150 psi.=C2=A0 Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additional oil flow above 2800= RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump.=C2=A0 At 5600 RP= M half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the oil cooler= .


With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 15= 0 psi so all of the oil passes through it.


An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various o= il cooler configurations that I tested.


Steve Boese



<= b>From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0

This thread has perfect timing and great info for me.

I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like e= very system is a compromise.
I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump = tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was= I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread thou= gh I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyone else on the controls.
Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need = some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or fee= d problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sum= p to fuel selectors for a visual clue.
I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed= but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to f= ail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also.
I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but= there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating = fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel= flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump.

Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler= . I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so= new belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I ne= ver thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the front relief valve is opening?<= br>
Andrew














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