X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Kelly Troyer" Received: from mail-ot0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9606258 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:50:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.181; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot0-f181.google.com with SMTP id y88so1065568ota.2 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=esB12uIVrSvy7+Uyjtli9e/KmaC3eYn2XWpV3O5uYco=; b=E4tmG+Vy+GTDshLnFTBiLxC24mnRDhgiDJxs+UsmPXx3B7D4H7Sima0j02oApnaWyC WoIiyPChXr7Nn2odThblP73h3rbPI1tUYxKAXlORT4nA2qVY3+gCT4QgXgJIzTbnfj8S azY0HKNQYRWwIfBdyLN/uwPU34d/kYsoLx8L9gcpW9dVwYKoPNJCBgr4jwVwzugZJQ3+ U4Lzs3Ed19NnW7A21ejkxPmu2PUMOi466dwTTQGsRBfR6XvbCj0pefL4lN1wfejCZp14 5+/IeZDK3Jvl4Ux43kJAax7Uved9YwESfFY6EzWyUPebSQjM4I1JUgK+kOoZAjFOwqVk mgvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=esB12uIVrSvy7+Uyjtli9e/KmaC3eYn2XWpV3O5uYco=; b=IFSJ3CKkafsWZfWkbqvmnBizs7rwWaBA2nLkiGjqLBPJnNLc1ABKy1wmiaBJTH9sr2 diytu9/TVWXFm+jdesTVbjpX4sdGVzXcd5E3yzcLMDbQhtOP3i3BYGnkQwRHxSyJOnGy ylSBujqSWRwwgTwHoc4EIQfxwfOdzy9v4RDEkWNFrCxDMO5UkWFTMUsSz1lnetMITX9r 3rKDUCUi/wTDtcuKvd1I8ZW1clqj2brgbQqw0e7BchtGlubLoWIxbDqUGTbht+7+DwTI uczhV3Kn2CeaIdocuthDFld3FPhZ2Q41H59z9DWxgQ1s7JUQUFIqgF+xNCWH6WFWYKYG ndTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3i0/12nJqj2fOF6SXIiWyxyFoU2l7ADUHvR33/ZdAeSK7LuCgitnvO1PMhz29YeW7TrPpAo1F6m7n71g== X-Received: by 10.157.36.85 with SMTP id p79mr5885166ota.84.1490388591407; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:49:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.59.196 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:49:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:49:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113adb829179d7054b8022ce --001a113adb829179d7054b8022ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Steve, Were the -10 fittings on your DB 30618 straight across from each each other or were they offset (one end high and the other end lower) as I am trying to ascertain what the difference is between the two versions other than price........The NASCAR version is about $60.00 higher in price.??............. Thanks, Kelly troyer On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Steven W. Boese < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Kelly, > > > The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3.0" deep and > is single pass. It had -10 fittings on each end which I cut off and > replaced with -8 fittings. > > > It is probably overkill. > > > Steve > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf > of Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review > > Steve, > I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........One call a > "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00) > and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not > Say)........Which are you using ??........... > > Kelly Troyer > > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boese < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler. Removing >> the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter what >> the temperature of the oil is. The pressure at the inlet to the oil cooler >> would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM. >> Without oil being forced to flow through the core, however, the cooling >> effectiveness would be greatly reduced. I have not set up the oil cooler >> this way. >> >> >> It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypass >> with a bolt and nut. This prevents the hot oil from flowing through the >> bypass and mixing with the oil cooled by the core. Only the cooled oil >> will exit the oil cooler then. The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would >> reach 150 psi at lower RPM with this set up. I've tried this setup but >> didn't make pressure measurements on it. >> >> >> I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double pass >> by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal >> connections and removing the thermostat. The inlet pressure reached 150 >> psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified cooler with the >> thermostat installed. This demonstrated the restrictive nature of the RX7 >> core. >> >> >> Steve Boese >> RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on >> behalf of hoursaway1 >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >> >> Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same pressure >> build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, I'm >> thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary >> ,MI >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *"Steven W. Boese" >> *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" >> *Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM >> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >> >> >> Andrew, >> >> >> A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane. >> >> >> When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover >> outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM >> to 150 psi at 2800 RPM. Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a steady >> pressure at 150 psi. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, >> additional oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through the relief valve into >> the sump. At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows >> through the oil cooler. >> >> >> With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 150 >> psi so all of the oil passes through it. >> >> >> An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various >> oil cooler configurations that I tested. >> >> >> Steve Boese >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on >> behalf of Andrew Martin >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review >> >> >> This thread has perfect timing and great info for me. >> >> I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like >> every system is a compromise. >> I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump >> tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was >> I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread >> though I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and >> just not let anyone else on the controls. >> Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. >> Need some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or >> feed problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from >> sump to fuel selectors for a visual clue. >> I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not >> needed but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps >> happened to fail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to >> sump also. >> I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system >> but there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not >> circulating fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small >> when fuel flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump. >> >> Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. >> I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new >> belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never >> thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that >> the front relief valve is opening? >> >> Andrew >> >> >> > > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --001a113adb829179d7054b8022ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Were the -10 fittings on your DB = 30618 straight across from each each other or were they offset (one end hig= h and the other end lower)
as I am trying to ascertain what the d= ifference is between the two versions other than price........The NASCAR ve= rsion is about $60.00 =C2=A0
higher in price.??.............

Thanks,
Kelly troyer

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:= 16 AM, Steven W. Boese <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly,


The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3= .0" deep and is single pass.=C2=A0 It had -10 fittings on each end whi= ch I cut off and replaced with -8 fittings.


It is probably overkill.


Steve

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Kelly = Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0
Steve,
=C2=A0I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........O= ne call a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00)
and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not Say).......= .Which are you using ??...........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,


The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler.=C2=A0 Remov= ing the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter = what the temperature of the oil is.=C2=A0 The pressure at the inlet to the = oil cooler would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM.=C2=A0 Without oil being forced to flo= w through the core, however,=C2=A0the cooling effectiveness would be greatl= y reduced.=C2=A0 I have not=C2=A0set up=C2=A0the oil cooler this way.


It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypas= s with a bolt and nut.=C2=A0 This=C2=A0prevents the=C2=A0hot oil from flowi= ng through the bypass and mixing with the oil=C2=A0cooled=C2=A0by=C2=A0the = core.=C2=A0 Only the cooled oil will exit the oil cooler then.=C2=A0 The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach 150 psi at lower RPM with thi= s set up.=C2=A0 I've=C2=A0tried this setup but didn't make pressure= measurements on it.


I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double p= ass by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal = connections and removing the thermostat.=C2=A0 The inlet pressure reached 1= 50 psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the=C2=A0unmodified cooler with the thermostat installed.=C2=A0 This demon= strated the restrictive nature of the RX7 core.

=C2=A0

Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2


From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; on behalf of hoursaway1 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0
Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for=C2=A0that same press= ure build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, = I'm thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook=C2=A0 = RV6A Rotary ,MI

From: "Steven W. Boese" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review


Andrew,


A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane= .


When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover = outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM = to 150 psi at 2800 RPM.=C2=A0 Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a stead= y pressure at 150 psi.=C2=A0 Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additional oil flow above 2800= RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump.=C2=A0 At 5600 RP= M half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the oil cooler= .


With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 15= 0 psi so all of the oil passes through it.


An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various o= il cooler configurations that I tested.


Steve Boese



From: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
=C2=A0

This thread has perfect timing and great info for me.

I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like e= very system is a compromise.
I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump = tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was= I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread thou= gh I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyone else on the controls.
Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need = some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or fee= d problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sum= p to fuel selectors for a visual clue.
I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed= but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to f= ail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also.
I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but= there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating = fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel= flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump.

Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler= . I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so= new belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I ne= ver thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the front relief valve is opening?<= br>
Andrew





--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyk= e Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--001a113adb829179d7054b8022ce--