X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m006e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.6] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9605491 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:59:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.6; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mcd01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mcd01.mx.aol.com [172.26.223.207]) by omr-m006e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 2401B380004A for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mda04e.mail.aol.com (core-mda04.mail.aol.com [172.27.39.4]) by mtaomg-mcd01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id BF4C938000088 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:58:54 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:58:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f9ee0.2a8b0656.4606b85e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 19 X-Originating-IP: [97.97.209.151] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1490378335; bh=PlG2Up6wSL6u08pbA3V62m72I6SJst/Gajha8xcfZhQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WkRPq0WjtmMj9teE6VKilsimRV1DXIGLrG5oyJXPlpewi2iqjMhSr7l0xwToXBjj3 NY0ok7MGVRZZpMTAhz8KtAYYugi8sNQRJd5XP0nCyu0gOl1cKiyRxlzSgWLxKy/6ew TRzOb38X79DSF5tHgvT3qBsg5GL1NbmUVENUqrUU= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1adfcf58d55e5e339b --part1_f9ee0.2a8b0656.4606b85e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The racer has one Setrab 44 row cooler in the pressure loop and two 44 row Setrabs in the scavenge loop' Before sponsor money appeared, We used air conditioner cores from big GM cars as oil coolers. Fill with water and TIG on the dash 10 or 12 fittings. Multiple smaller coolers my provide more latitude of design in small spaces. A bit more than 1/3 of all engine heat escapes through the oil. Make up cardboard box replicas of proposed coolers for fit up before buying. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 3/24/2017 12:48:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Steve, I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........One call a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00) and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not Say)........Which are you using ??........... Kelly Troyer On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boese <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: Dave, The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler. Removing the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter what the temperature of the oil is. The pressure at the inlet to the oil cooler would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM. Without oil being forced to flow through the core, however, the cooling effectiveness would be greatly reduced. I have not set up the oil cooler this way. It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypass with a bolt and nut. This prevents the hot oil from flowing through the bypass and mixing with the oil cooled by the core. Only the cooled oil will exit the oil cooler then. The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach 150 psi at lower RPM with this set up. I've tried this setup but didn't make pressure measurements on it. I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double pass by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal connections and removing the thermostat. The inlet pressure reached 150 psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified cooler with the thermostat installed. This demonstrated the restrictive nature of the RX7 core. Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 ____________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > on behalf of hoursaway1 <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same pressure build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, I'm thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary ,MI ____________________________________ From: "Steven W. Boese" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Andrew, A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane. When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM to 150 psi at 2800 RPM. Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a steady pressure at 150 psi. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additional oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump. At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the oil cooler. With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 150 psi so all of the oil passes through it. An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various oil cooler configurations that I tested. Steve Boese ____________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > on behalf of Andrew Martin <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review This thread has perfect timing and great info for me. I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like every system is a compromise. I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread though I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyone else on the controls. Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or feed problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sump to fuel selectors for a visual clue. I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to fail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also. I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump. Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the front relief valve is opening? Andrew -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --part1_f9ee0.2a8b0656.4606b85e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The racer has one Setrab 44 row cooler in the pressure loop and two= 44 row=20 Setrabs in the scavenge loop'   Before sponsor money appeared,= We used=20 air conditioner cores from big GM cars as oil coolers. Fill with water and= TIG=20 on the dash 10 or 12 fittings.
 
Multiple smaller coolers my provide more latitude of design in small= =20 spaces. A bit more than 1/3 of all engine heat escapes through the oil. Ma= ke up=20 cardboard box replicas of proposed coolers for fit up before buying.
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 3/24/2017 12:48:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Steve,=20
 I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler......= ..One=20 call a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00)
and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not=20 Say)........Which are you using ??...........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boe= se <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,


The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler. = =20 Removing the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core= no=20 matter what the temperature of the oil is.  The pressure at the= inlet=20 to the oil cooler would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 15= 0 psi=20 at high RPM.  Without oil being forced to flow through the core,= =20 however, the cooling effectiveness would be greatly reduced. = ; I=20 have not set up the oil cooler this way.


It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the= bypass=20 with a bolt and nut.  This prevents the hot oil from fl= owing=20 through the bypass and mixing with the oil cooled by th= e=20 core.  Only the cooled oil will exit the oil cooler then. = The=20 pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach 150 psi at lower RPM with= this=20 set up.  I've tried this setup but didn't make pressure=20 measurements on it.


I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double= pass=20 by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal= =20 connections and removing the thermostat.  The inlet pressure reac= hed=20 150 psi at about the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified coole= r with=20 the thermostat installed.  This demonstrated the restrictive natu= re of=20 the RX7 core.


Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A,=20 EC2


From: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of hours= away1=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Th= ursday,=20 March 23, 2017 6:52 PM=20

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject= :=20 [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
 
Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same= =20 pressure build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass=20 removed/by-passed, I'm thinking that is the cause of the restriction.= David=20 R. Cook  RV6A Rotary ,MI

= From:=20 "Steven W. Boese" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rot= ary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Th= ursday,=20 March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel sys= tem=20 peer review


Andrew,


A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the= =20 plane.


When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front= cover=20 outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing= RPM=20 to 150 psi at 2800 RPM.  Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a= steady=20 pressure at 150 psi.  Since the oil pump is a positive displaceme= nt=20 pump, additional oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through= the=20 relief valve into the sump.  At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped= by the=20 oil pump never flows through the oil cooler.


With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reach= es 150=20 psi so all of the oil passes through it.


An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of vari= ous=20 oil cooler configurations that I tested.


Steve Boese



From: Rotary mot= ors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andre= w Martin=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: We= dnesday,=20 March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review=20
 

This thread has perfect timing and great info for=20 me.

I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying= it, but=20 it looks like every system is a compromise.
I just mounted= a belly=20 radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump tank. As other loc= al=20 pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was I thought it=20 opportune to address it now. After following this thread though I'm in= clined=20 to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyo= ne=20 else on the controls.
Only problem I have is I cannot tell th= e fuel=20 level in the sump tank. Need some sort of warning that I've drained a= tank=20 dry or have a vent or feed problem. Am thinking of putting a sight gla= ss in=20 the return line from sump to fuel selectors for a visual clue.
I=20 like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not nee= ded=20 but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened= to=20 fail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump=20 also.
I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow te= sting=20 the system but there was no back pressure on the system so regulator= was not=20 circulating fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to sma= ll=20 when fuel flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the=20 sump.

Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your= =20 fluidyne oil cooler. I started with these mods because I couldn't cont= rol my=20 oil temps, so new belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the= cowl=20 air, but I never thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flo= w.=20 Whats the clue that the front relief valve is=20 opening?

Andrew


=

--
Kelly=20 Troyer
Dyke=20 Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--part1_f9ee0.2a8b0656.4606b85e_boundary--