X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Steven W. Boese" Received: from [104.47.33.104] (HELO NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9601004 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:23:52 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=104.47.33.104; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uwy.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-uwyo-edu; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=+P1+J8IU62fKDZNPGQrpGY+A33UtfnaowsiTZsXy2TA=; b=WSl/lG1Iar1wSgnCPnxh4qEgGamEaqidR0U0QsWqsqMMmiEVX1JJvJFkKg6+DY7j1uDfNojmVnRLKQFEkc4Dq0kLxQUZdo6bHLXW69Xl8Uyk+y6pleU16ke67634sHc+QgR2f30ZBovKneHeY93MV7AiepH2NOSM1s8Qo0Fw5yM= Received: from CO2PR0501MB903.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.247.18) by CO2PR0501MB904.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.247.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.4; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:23:33 +0000 Received: from CO2PR0501MB903.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.247.18]) by CO2PR0501MB903.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.247.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.017; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:23:33 +0000 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] oil cooling Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] oil cooling Thread-Index: AQHSo6IKsVr3ACr00EKSD+uTCSlDg6GikmRi Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:23:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: lancaironline.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lancaironline.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=uwyo.edu; x-originating-ip: [69.146.90.23] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO2PR0501MB904;7:w574PeQuCAGYom2GL/WrGxTbQvFe7uFcwC3G7X1cJ45dYWNF9Lh4+3xnzs0fivFjdJvv402L/GLjNK6Nztthco3XRxaEmkmDj+N/0L4m/e2XkPBN3o+fmXUzoRkJg/vZKkManhkR+2O9x9cG0vn2Skrv2BIwgS5JkwSQJMkZJszAjLenL0vBrbeUhIvj9BxtWZzuW9umolf76eTN9+VaWTjHg3OK1AmdGgNCut6YIysGeQoowGo9a26GQgBxhAxf8qSmy9rs3Bw9xo/qkjtpjP3ilznnqUKOAVhWc9O6R+0Uhd7+BvCW+axOScGJKBL8kVRFCAduLoRMmJraBDfnDA== x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 60a0f461-345f-4206-f641-08d47208f35f x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075);SRVR:CO2PR0501MB904; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6041248)(20161123560025)(20161123558025)(20161123555025)(20161123562025)(20161123564025)(6072148);SRVR:CO2PR0501MB904;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR0501MB904; x-forefront-prvs: 0255DF69B9 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(39450400003)(24454002)(377454003)(236005)(5660300001)(6436002)(6916009)(189998001)(76176999)(33656002)(9686003)(2906002)(99286003)(7736002)(3660700001)(53546009)(122556002)(88552002)(3280700002)(19627405001)(3846002)(81166006)(8676002)(75432002)(66066001)(74316002)(80792005)(86362001)(6116002)(77096006)(53936002)(54356999)(2950100002)(6506006)(102836003)(229853002)(6246003)(8936002)(110136004)(7696004)(38730400002)(54896002)(25786009)(2900100001)(50986999)(55016002);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:CO2PR0501MB904;H:CO2PR0501MB903.namprd05.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;MLV:sfv;LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR0501MB903E4A25B20B96B7F6A2C34B93F0CO2PR0501MB903na_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uwyo.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2017 16:23:33.2821 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f9cdd7ad-825d-4601-8e9c-a325e02d52da X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR0501MB904 --_000_CO2PR0501MB903E4A25B20B96B7F6A2C34B93F0CO2PR0501MB903na_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew, When the RX7 oil cooler thermostat warms up, it moves a spring loaded disk = against the bypass port outlet which tries to force all the oil to flow thr= ough the core. If the pressure differential across the core exceeds about = 50 psi, the spring loaded disk lifts and allows oil to bypass the core. Th= e oil thermostat not closing properly and oil bypassing due to pressure rel= ief would be identical in terms of how the oil passes through the system. = I don't know if a Cosmo oil cooler has the same function. Using the temperature of the oil returning to the engine from the oil coole= r as the criteria for oil cooling effectiveness, this oil temperature will = be higher when hot oil bypassing in the cooler is mixed with the cooler oil= that has passed through the core. If the oil pressure difference across t= he core is less than 50 psi, all of the oil returning to the engine will ha= ve passed through the core and its temperature will be lower even though th= e amount of heat removed from the oil system could be the same in both case= s. With the Fluidyne oil cooler the pressure drop through it didn't exceed 15 = psi under any condition that I tested (up to 6500 RPM). The pressure drop = through the RX7 cooler was about 80 psi when the front cover relief valve = (1986 13B ) opened at 150 psi. Oil passing through the cooler at this poin= t was flowing both through the core and the thermostat relief passage. I c= annot find any reference to a relief valve in the front cover of a 2004-200= 8 Renesis. If this is the case, then the oil pressure at the inlet to an R= X7 cooler must be far in excess of 150 psi under high RPM operation (over 2= 500 RPM). Of course this discussion of oil flow is only part of the oil cooling story= . Air flow through the core and the core construction are major factors, t= oo. Steve Boese ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of = Andrew Martin Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:51:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] oil cooling Steve, searched the archives, always seems a tricky process for me for some= reason. filter of OIL and search Steven W. Boese worked. I had missed tha= t discussion on oil coolers. certainly could explain my oil overheating pro= blem. Thanks for documenting your findings. I have a 2004 Renesis in the plane and used the oil heat exchanger from an = 70000km Cosmo that I pulled a factory 20b from. You said worst case for cooling was when oil was not at pump (front cover) = relief pressure and was bypassing in the cooler, I didn't realise the mazda= cooler had pressure relief or do you think the oil thermostat was not clos= ing properly? So, off to get a new oil heat exchanger. Andrew On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Steven W. Boese > wrote: Andrew, A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane. When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover out= let and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM to = 150 psi at 2800 RPM. Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a steady pressu= re at 150 psi. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additio= nal oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump. = At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the= oil cooler. With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 150 p= si so all of the oil passes through it. An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various oil = cooler configurations that I tested. Steve Boese ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft > on behalf of Andrew Martin > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review This thread has perfect timing and great info for me. I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like e= very system is a compromise. I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump tank= . As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was I t= hought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread though I= 'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not l= et anyone else on the controls. Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need = some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or feed pr= oblem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sump to= fuel selectors for a visual clue. I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed= but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to f= ail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also. I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but= there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating = fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel flow= ing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump. Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. I = started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new bel= ly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never thou= ght that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the= front relief valve is opening? Andrew --_000_CO2PR0501MB903E4A25B20B96B7F6A2C34B93F0CO2PR0501MB903na_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrew,


When the RX7 oil cooler thermostat warms up, it moves a spring loaded di= sk against the bypass port outlet which tries to force all the oil to flow = through the core.  If the pressure differential across the core exceed= s about 50 psi, the spring loaded disk lifts and allows oil to bypass the core.  The oil thermostat not clos= ing properly and oil bypassing due to pressure relief would be identical&nb= sp;in terms of how the oil passes through the system.  I don't kn= ow if a Cosmo oil cooler has the same function.


Using the temperature of the oil returning to the engine from the oil co= oler as the criteria for oil cooling effectiveness, this oil temperature wi= ll be higher when hot oil bypassing in the cooler is mixed with the cooler = oil that has passed through the core.  If the oil pressure difference across the core is less th= an 50 psi, all of the oil returning to the engine will have passed thr= ough the core and its temperature will be lower even though the a= mount of heat removed from the oil system could be the same in both cases.


With the Fluidyne oil cooler the pressure drop through it didn= 't exceed 15 psi under any condition that I tested (up to 6500 RPM).&n= bsp; The pressure drop through the RX7 cooler was about 80 psi  when t= he front cover relief valve (1986 13B ) opened at 150 psi.  Oil passing through the cooler at this point was flowing both through the = core and the thermostat relief passage.  I cannot find any reference t= o a relief valve in the front cover of a 2004-2008 Renesis.  If this i= s the case, then the oil pressure at the inlet to an RX7 cooler must be far in excess of 150 psi under high RPM operation= (over 2500 RPM).


Of course this discussion of oil flow is only part of the= oil cooling story.  Air flow through the core and the core constructi= on are major factors, too. 


Steve Boese  

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andrew Martin <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:51:22 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] oil cooling
 

Steve, searched the archives, always seems a tri= cky process for me for some reason. filter of OIL and search Steven W. Boes= e worked.  I had missed that discussion on oil coolers. certainly coul= d explain my oil overheating problem. Thanks for documenting your findings.
I have a 2004 Renesis in the plane and used the = oil heat exchanger from an 70000km Cosmo that I pulled a factory 20b from.
You said worst case for cooling was when oil was not at pump (front cover) = relief pressure and was bypassing in the cooler, I didn't realise the mazda= cooler had pressure relief or do you think the oil thermostat was not clos= ing properly?
So, off to get a new oil heat exchanger.

Andrew




On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Andrew,


A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane= .


When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover = outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM = to 150 psi at 2800 RPM.  Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a stead= y pressure at 150 psi.  Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additional oil flow above 2800= RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump.  At 5600 RP= M half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the oil cooler= .


With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 15= 0 psi so all of the oil passes through it.


An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various o= il cooler configurations that I tested.


Steve Boese


From: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
 

This thread has perfect timing and great info for me.

I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, b= ut it looks like every system is a compromise.
I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the= pumps & sump tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex = my fuel system was I thought it opportune to address it now. After followin= g this thread though I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyone else on th= e controls.
Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in th= e sump tank. Need some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have= a vent or feed problem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return= line from sump to fuel selectors for a visual clue.
I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all= tanks. not needed but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer p= umps happened to fail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tank= s to sump also.
I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow test= ing the system but there was no back pressure on the system so regulator wa= s not circulating fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just = to small when fuel flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump.

Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluid= yne oil cooler. I started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil= temps, so new belly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air= , but I never thought that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the front relief valv= e is opening?

Andrew


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