X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Stephen Izett" Received: from mail-pf0-f178.google.com ([209.85.192.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTPS id 8836032 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:59:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.178; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf0-f178.google.com with SMTP id y134so37504810pfg.0 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:59:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=7Qqi17nkipci/OpBRYw/RnBvUoUqtk917fy5w81H9lw=; b=C60H+sG+3S/aCJ+sTUzcOiu7Av1zG9HBxLF+x8JwtnNIiMLNVXhoSOTEMu9ihoiAWI ukgLRJy4vuOH6QRjccQ1GRHyLWSjQIszg1m6G1wALASIs80oERvJNjEK5sgeapP6kIqA oQxplyFR+C1H2ZgGglIW/9DkDUAb81OtzGIcO9Btv8PosqODAE7wZmeFNV06/f8WxBXn 87r9lcvPDis9ZRp+PnV5SN3WTbe75GO59bDXbu6ntanxsdH4henHQZMRQtrbTP9WZGMO 6Mr0FHKQ7S4pYbSEinmCGPANCP2s6as0NrkOETRkUYYam/E4bAjgKMwTFivupqHH4ZmK sBHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=7Qqi17nkipci/OpBRYw/RnBvUoUqtk917fy5w81H9lw=; b=XX0oYKWfR/ti9pekvgcUk3R6wrx23x++dpP9FXMgnZBlqzyjzpwGUzC1PVaYLmWlxG c/WHIlQYCqdWjx/4cOE3q5GBbWX+r/dG/lxaRkv/6m7boiYQbuIxPk1H3IozCuijuL59 3gCNo5AnJPjhVsATp7HIfN7zzWEDCoS4iaU5W0ErBebvmxHRiPWTtn0gHSzDFOyqqWNY B3AitVvIbHjTqPzDkUnSY7KsCvMArlP7jqlrP11MWDI1TNkULZMlVtFjxkaGa5I43Yvj tXRPbquOH8gB/euBxUejevYvF+NEHXvW/nIzpl0tMrOIX3RlxN0FR9V4RzkmW2X+XPaV EFJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouseMvKDGhoeTz/U0nu6rA2AiUpTrRiVTizV7zVq8BF5Ed2Yz9Fk/hHYv8HbQB/4nA== X-Received: by 10.98.21.131 with SMTP id 125mr73909656pfv.92.1469843970757; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.1.1.5] (106-68-101-235.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.68.101.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a21sm27820264pfe.81.2016.07.29.18.59.21 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Stephen Izett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4A8FF37D-E497-4C1D-A16D-D82FFD1D972E" Message-Id: <5BB3A91A-2802-48FD-9F36-67B2C59B3B12@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 09:59:17 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) --Apple-Mail=_4A8FF37D-E497-4C1D-A16D-D82FFD1D972E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks heaps you guys. So: 1. EC2 and CAS signal - the EC2 has got some conditioning on the CAS = sensor inputs done by Tracy so expect this is good and shouldn=E2=80=99t = be the problem. Could put the CRO on the inputs to be sure. 2. Good call Bobby re fault finding process to disconnect the sky view. = Easy to unplug the Engine monitor. (should have thought of that, poor = process on my part) 3. Injectors and Staging. Injectors are standard 4 port Renesis Red and = Blue. Blues flow twice as much as Red=E2=80=99s, so staging is delayed = till about 19=E2=80=9D as per tracy=E2=80=99s guide.=20 Parallel Dynon or EM3 Engine Monitor inputs holding injector #1 open? = Has anyone seen this phenomenon? Disconnecting one and then both will = isolate this as the cause quickly. 4. I=E2=80=99ll experiment with both a restriction of 0.6mm (Thanks = Christian and Lyn) and a perhaps a fuel filter to tame the pulses. Once again. Thanks so much for your input. Steve Izett > On 30 Jul 2016, at 9:19 AM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = wrote: >=20 > Hi Steve > I found it would jump all over the place there was no steady reading = until I installed the restricter, that was installed atop of my plenum = that I made, then I stuck it at the base of the throttle body and I got = a little more accurate readings, but the restricter made all the = differance for me the poor old computer didn't know what to make of it = at first and was backfiring and carrying on and couldn't get a steady = rpm at all. As soon as I changed the position it ran allot better and = smooth. > Now even with 90mm tb and the p port its like a turbine down to = 1800rpm, nice and smooth >=20 > Cheers >=20 > On Saturday, 30 July 2016, Neil Unger > wrote: > Steve, I did initially install the MAP sensor pipes in the oiling = holes and it was a total failure due to getting both vacuum and pressure = in each cycle. Changed it back to just under the throttle bodies and = all was well. Oil holes definitely not! Neil. > =20 > From: steve Izett = > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:37 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft = > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing > =20 > Hi Christian > What did irregular map signals look like in terms of engine running on = your engine? > What engine/setup do you have? > =20 > Steve >> On 29 Jul 2016, at 7:50 PM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = > wrote: >> =20 >> Hi Steve >> Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I installed a mig = welding tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me. >> =20 >> Cheers >> Christian >>=20 >> On Friday, 29 July 2016, steve Izett > wrote: >> Hi Guys >>=20 >> We did further testing of the Renesis today. Would really appreciate = your heads on this. >> Last series of tests we had this major missing and noise which I = think is fuel exploding in the exhaust. >> This happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the = adjustable prop. >> With fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before = striking this mayhem. >> With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before the same symptoms. >> =46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 inches of Hg. >> My Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present. >> The narrowband response time appears to slow to discover what the = mixture is doing during the episodes. >>=20 >> Also still having trouble with the EM3. Sometimes display reads what = appears to be an error message and at other times stops reading RPM. >> The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at the same RPM so = appears directly related. >> I changed the input on the Skyview to the Standard RPM input as I = incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the lower voltage input, but this = made no difference. >>=20 >> I had wondered if the secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting = power and as a consequence when it staged to all 4 injectors the trouble = began. >> Using the EM3 display (staging asterisk) and switching power off to = the secondaries I was able to ascertain that the secondaries appear to = be functioning fine. >> I did notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid. >> This takes me back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold = signal to the EC2. >> Sorry Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because it = was running so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal = issue. >> Maybe the wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the = manifold signal tap position! >>=20 >> Ed, you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate the = volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres. >> My gut was that the accumulator required to damp the signal would = need to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess) >> So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s = way to big. >> Ed, did I understand you right that a small fuel filter can do the = trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume. >> I suppose if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to = takes to damp out the pulses. >>=20 >> Can I ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal and = what was the solution that worked best. >> Paul Lamar advocates tapping the signal from the oil injection ports. = Has/is anyone using this solution? >>=20 >> Thanks very much everyone. >>=20 >> Steve Izett >> Glasair Super II RG >> Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_4A8FF37D-E497-4C1D-A16D-D82FFD1D972E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks heaps you guys.
So:
1. EC2 and CAS signal - the EC2 has got some conditioning on = the CAS sensor inputs done by Tracy so expect this is good and = shouldn=E2=80=99t be the problem. Could put the CRO on the inputs to be = sure.
2. Good call Bobby re fault finding process = to disconnect the sky view. Easy to unplug the Engine monitor. =  (should have thought of that, poor process on my part)
3. Injectors and Staging. Injectors are standard 4 port = Renesis Red and Blue. Blues flow twice as much as Red=E2=80=99s, so = staging is delayed till about 19=E2=80=9D as per tracy=E2=80=99s = guide. 
Parallel Dynon or EM3 Engine Monitor = inputs holding injector #1 open?  Has anyone seen this phenomenon? = Disconnecting one and then both will isolate this as the cause = quickly.
4. I=E2=80=99ll experiment with both a = restriction of 0.6mm (Thanks Christian and Lyn) and a perhaps a fuel = filter to tame the pulses.
Once again.
Thanks so much for your input.
Steve = Izett



On = 30 Jul 2016, at 9:19 AM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Steve
I found it would jump all over the place there was no steady = reading until I installed the restricter, that was installed atop of my = plenum that I made, then I stuck it at the base of the throttle body and = I got a little more accurate readings, but the restricter made all the = differance for me the poor old computer didn't know what to make of it = at first and was backfiring and carrying on and couldn't get a steady = rpm at all. As soon as I changed the position it ran allot better and = smooth.
Now even with 90mm tb and the p port its = like a turbine down to 1800rpm, nice and smooth

Cheers

On = Saturday, 30 July 2016, Neil Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve,  I did initially install the MAP sensor = pipes in the oiling=20 holes and it was a total failure due to getting both vacuum and pressure = in each=20 cycle.  Changed it back to just under the throttle bodies and all = was=20 well.  Oil holes definitely not!  Neil.
 
From: steve Izett
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:37 = PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further = testing
 
Hi=20 Christian=20
What did irregular map signals look like in terms of = engine running on your=20 engine?
What engine/setup do you have?
 
Steve
On 29 Jul 2016, at 7:50 PM, Christian And Tamara = Mcdonald <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
 
Hi Steve=20
Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I = installed a mig welding=20 tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me.
 
Cheers
Christian

On Friday, 29 = July 2016, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
Hi=20 Guys

We did further testing of the = Renesis today. Would really=20 appreciate your heads on this.
Last series of tests we = had this major=20 missing and noise which I think is fuel exploding in the exhaust.
This=20 happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the adjustable = prop.
With=20 fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking = this=20 mayhem.
With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm = before the same=20 symptoms.
=46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 = inches of Hg.
My=20 Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present.
The = narrowband response time=20 appears to slow to discover what the mixture is doing during the=20 episodes.

Also still having trouble = with the EM3. Sometimes display=20 reads what appears to be an error message and at other times stops = reading=20 RPM.
The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at = the same RPM so=20 appears directly related.
I changed the input on the = Skyview to the=20 Standard RPM input as I incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the = lower=20 voltage input, but this made no difference.

I had wondered if the=20 secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting power and as a = consequence when it=20 staged to all 4 injectors the trouble began.
Using the = EM3 display=20 (staging asterisk) and switching power off to the secondaries I was = able to=20 ascertain that the secondaries appear to be functioning fine.
I did=20 notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid.
This takes me=20 back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold signal to the = EC2.
Sorry=20 Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because it was = running=20 so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal = issue.
Maybe the=20 wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the manifold = signal=20 tap position!

Ed, you mentioned either = small orifice or accumulator.=20 I estimate the volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic=20 centimetres.
My gut was that the accumulator required = to damp the signal=20 would need to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess)
So maybe 180=20 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s way to = big.
Ed, did I understand=20 you right that a small fuel filter can do the trick? I thought they = would=20 only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume.
I suppose if = the pulses are very=20 narrow/short maybe thats all to takes to damp out the pulses.

Can I=20 ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal and what = was the=20 solution that worked best.
Paul Lamar advocates = tapping the signal from=20 the oil injection ports. Has/is anyone using this solution?

Thanks=20 very much everyone.

Steve Izett
Glasair Super II RG
Reneis 4=20 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C







--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">
 

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