X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "steve Izett" Received: from mail-pf0-f175.google.com ([209.85.192.175] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTPS id 8834035 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:51:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.175; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf0-f175.google.com with SMTP id h186so32546925pfg.3 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=BTyk1BJuHl7Ku/VcRNSkTC0FzfwVH3u4TyM07jO8LtE=; b=MFiTZYrT4uYS+5+MtAOpyjH+U32HoheUfmkZypUlYvj5vylQnCDSFYVNcqmV7GHuwk Hrty24viLZf34m9i1yRoOb7ScLbwOmoriWbrK5atvlFok86Ddwj/JDiShGEEpywowXaQ p9IUIwIU30djz1z8VeijdDDQ0HRtVjnMJdimMm1b9qyUPJMMREMvZI5t6uprUWliq8Nt SO8Kmw2aOfNSNrwTubR6rnYmHcoZKN+9HssBHh1NciJxg01AJwXWYjb/A8i8SxNTozTe 4CdezRRGUXGGF23LBUntLJZ2pfDW4hmxllgCc2uetZZ1/bSLtKvuJioVsdMAdfEE/ga9 7tmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=BTyk1BJuHl7Ku/VcRNSkTC0FzfwVH3u4TyM07jO8LtE=; b=mOAtKs7xKknI9fTBaMCDMuAwvkBXHxpLOufO6+NvVwAQKje0mLCLJUkW+KATh2Yx4a kCLZ8PuvpKyfL8BD3wkPrQCiJMGXnNLUCI/h3TKq2bI7y7Q3HmgvTANGDNqZYxbCNL5a KDuxTAWSu5Y7wxnPtcI0HWX2wiK64hJvzia+TPCLPFxa/7A2gs86t3yJKZX7EKJly9qr 4UD6PwNZdXOFSoqiFaQ422uBkVF9ISIkDBpUtKNr2ddV0JaMU5mXNDwmadQxjXtT91R2 bludNSGImPcODx0Wt0/IlPCT/9sU6l7CyjdY30l8uMmmbdlQqbNwSjg2/j+F9it4BiAP ALww== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkooutO/1nKpkQ7l/63AFdG++2+Fgzccy1yxVME6kKF79LpgKBLK8QXNXEF8KZeWCQqLQ== X-Received: by 10.98.152.129 with SMTP id d1mr69184061pfk.126.1469796666036; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 05:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.1.1.5] (106-68-101-235.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.68.101.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ao6sm21335291pac.8.2016.07.29.05.51.01 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Jul 2016 05:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1299372B-FB1B-4166-AEA1-56AF85D570D7" Message-Id: <2B8FF6B9-333A-470A-BD2D-516C70E6A657@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 20:50:59 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) --Apple-Mail=_1299372B-FB1B-4166-AEA1-56AF85D570D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Ed, That will be the next step. Steve > On 29 Jul 2016, at 8:21 PM, Ed Anderson = wrote: >=20 > Hi Steve, > =20 > Just about any device that uses MAP sensors can be/ may be seriously = effected by the powerful wave forms in the intake manifold.=20 > =20 > We have found this on the EC2 as well as the Pmag electronic ignitions = (which also uses a MAP sensor). One reason it does not happen all the = time is that the complexity of the wave forms and where they interact = (add/subtract) with each other as well as you manifold sensing port = location, manifold shape, rpm (and undoubtedly even more factors) and = it can either result in no problem at all =E2=80=93 or a major problem.=20= > =20 > Since rpm has a significant influence on the creation of finite = amplitude waves, its not surprising that you may have no problem at one = rpm and a significant one at a different rpm. > =20 > You problem may not be the result of MAP influence =E2=80=93 but, = since it is rather easy to stick a restrictor (or a small plastic fuel = filter) in the line and then see if that has any effect on the problem, = I would try that first, before tearing into anything. If it does not = show any impact, then you have not spent a lot of time or money. > =20 > Just my $0.02 worth. > =20 > Ed > =20 > From: Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 7:50 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing > =20 > Hi Steve > Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I installed a mig = welding tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me. > =20 > Cheers > Christian >=20 > On Friday, 29 July 2016, steve Izett > wrote: > Hi Guys >=20 > We did further testing of the Renesis today. Would really appreciate = your heads on this. > Last series of tests we had this major missing and noise which I think = is fuel exploding in the exhaust. > This happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the = adjustable prop. > With fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking = this mayhem. > With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before the same symptoms. > =46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 inches of Hg. > My Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present. > The narrowband response time appears to slow to discover what the = mixture is doing during the episodes. >=20 > Also still having trouble with the EM3. Sometimes display reads what = appears to be an error message and at other times stops reading RPM. > The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at the same RPM so = appears directly related. > I changed the input on the Skyview to the Standard RPM input as I = incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the lower voltage input, but this = made no difference. >=20 > I had wondered if the secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting = power and as a consequence when it staged to all 4 injectors the trouble = began. > Using the EM3 display (staging asterisk) and switching power off to = the secondaries I was able to ascertain that the secondaries appear to = be functioning fine. > I did notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid. > This takes me back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold = signal to the EC2. > Sorry Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because it = was running so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal = issue. > Maybe the wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the = manifold signal tap position! >=20 > Ed, you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate the = volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres. > My gut was that the accumulator required to damp the signal would need = to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess) > So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s = way to big. > Ed, did I understand you right that a small fuel filter can do the = trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume. > I suppose if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to takes = to damp out the pulses. >=20 > Can I ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal and = what was the solution that worked best. > Paul Lamar advocates tapping the signal from the oil injection ports. = Has/is anyone using this solution? >=20 > Thanks very much everyone. >=20 > Steve Izett > Glasair Super II RG > Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = > <>No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7442 / Virus Database: 4627/12702 - Release Date: = 07/28/16 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1299372B-FB1B-4166-AEA1-56AF85D570D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Ed,
That will be the next = step.
Steve
On 29 Jul 2016, at 8:21 PM, Ed = Anderson <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Steve,
 
Just about any device that uses MAP sensors can be/ may = be seriously=20 effected by the powerful wave forms in the intake manifold. 
 
We have found this on the EC2 as well as the Pmag = electronic ignitions=20 (which also uses a MAP sensor).  One reason it does not  = happen all=20 the time is that the complexity of the wave forms and where they = interact=20 (add/subtract) with each other as well as you manifold sensing port = location,=20 manifold shape, rpm (and undoubtedly even more factors)  and it can = either=20 result in no problem at all =E2=80=93 or a major problem. 
 
Since rpm has a significant influence on the creation of = finite amplitude=20 waves, its not surprising that you may have no problem at one rpm and a=20= significant one at a different rpm.
 
You problem may not be the result of MAP influence =E2=80=93= but, since it is=20 rather easy to stick a restrictor (or a small plastic fuel filter) in = the line=20 and then see if that has any effect on the problem, I would try that = first,=20 before tearing into anything.  If it does not show any impact, then = you=20 have not spent a lot of time or money.
 
Just my $0.02 worth.
 
Ed
 
From: Christian And = Tamara Mcdonald=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 7:50 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further = testing
 
Hi=20 Steve=20
Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I = installed a mig welding=20 tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me.
 
Cheers
Christian

On Friday, 29 = July 2016, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
Hi=20 Guys

We did further testing of the = Renesis today. Would really=20 appreciate your heads on this.
Last series of tests we = had this major=20 missing and noise which I think is fuel exploding in the exhaust.
This=20 happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the adjustable = prop.
With fine=20 pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking this=20 mayhem.
With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before = the same=20 symptoms.
=46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 = inches of Hg.
My=20 Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present.
The narrowband = response time=20 appears to slow to discover what the mixture is doing during the=20 episodes.

Also still having trouble with = the EM3. Sometimes display=20 reads what appears to be an error message and at other times stops = reading=20 RPM.
The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at = the same RPM so=20 appears directly related.
I changed the input on the = Skyview to the=20 Standard RPM input as I incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the = lower=20 voltage input, but this made no difference.

I had wondered if the=20 secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting power and as a consequence = when it staged=20 to all 4 injectors the trouble began.
Using the EM3 = display (staging=20 asterisk) and switching power off to the secondaries I was able to = ascertain=20 that the secondaries appear to be functioning fine.
I = did notice that the=20 point of staging appears to be not solid.
This takes me = back to Ed=E2=80=99s=20 comments re damping the manifold signal to the EC2.
Sorry = Ed, you might=20 have had it right last week. I thought because it was running so = smoothly up=20 to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal issue.
Maybe = the wavelength/timing of=20 those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the manifold signal tap position!

Ed,=20 you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate the = volume of=20 the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres.
My = gut was that the=20 accumulator required to damp the signal would need to be an order of = magnitude=20 larger. (total guess)
So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but = thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s=20 way to big.
Ed, did I understand you right that a small = fuel filter can do=20 the trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in = volume.
I suppose=20 if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to takes to damp = out the=20 pulses.

Can I ask the group please. Who = had trouble with manifold=20 signal and what was the solution that worked best.
Paul = Lamar advocates=20 tapping the signal from the oil injection ports. Has/is anyone using = this=20 solution?

Thanks very much everyone.

Steve Izett
Glasair=20 Super II RG
Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3=20 RD1-C








--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7442 / Virus=20 Database: 4627/12702 - Release Date:=20 07/28/16


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