X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Ed Anderson" Received: from [107.14.166.230] (HELO cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTP id 8833973 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:22:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=107.14.166.230; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: Received: from [71.75.210.154] ([71.75.210.154:59796] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id 8D/5B-07301-06A4B975; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 12:21:53 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:21:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1E972.4382BC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.168.142:25 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1E972.4382BC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve, Just about any device that uses MAP sensors can be/ may be seriously = effected by the powerful wave forms in the intake manifold. =20 We have found this on the EC2 as well as the Pmag electronic ignitions = (which also uses a MAP sensor). One reason it does not happen all the = time is that the complexity of the wave forms and where they interact = (add/subtract) with each other as well as you manifold sensing port = location, manifold shape, rpm (and undoubtedly even more factors) and = it can either result in no problem at all =E2=80=93 or a major problem. = Since rpm has a significant influence on the creation of finite = amplitude waves, its not surprising that you may have no problem at one = rpm and a significant one at a different rpm.=20 You problem may not be the result of MAP influence =E2=80=93 but, since = it is rather easy to stick a restrictor (or a small plastic fuel filter) = in the line and then see if that has any effect on the problem, I would = try that first, before tearing into anything. If it does not show any = impact, then you have not spent a lot of time or money. Just my $0.02 worth. Ed From: Christian And Tamara Mcdonald=20 Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 7:50 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing Hi Steve=20 Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I installed a mig = welding tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me. Cheers Christian On Friday, 29 July 2016, steve Izett = wrote: Hi Guys We did further testing of the Renesis today. Would really appreciate = your heads on this. Last series of tests we had this major missing and noise which I think = is fuel exploding in the exhaust. This happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the = adjustable prop. With fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking = this mayhem. With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before the same symptoms. From memory these were both at about 22-23 inches of Hg. My Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present. The narrowband response time appears to slow to discover what the = mixture is doing during the episodes. Also still having trouble with the EM3. Sometimes display reads what = appears to be an error message and at other times stops reading RPM. The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at the same RPM so = appears directly related. I changed the input on the Skyview to the Standard RPM input as I = incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the lower voltage input, but this = made no difference. I had wondered if the secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting = power and as a consequence when it staged to all 4 injectors the trouble = began. Using the EM3 display (staging asterisk) and switching power off to = the secondaries I was able to ascertain that the secondaries appear to = be functioning fine. I did notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid. This takes me back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold = signal to the EC2. Sorry Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because it = was running so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal = issue. Maybe the wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the = manifold signal tap position! Ed, you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate the = volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres. My gut was that the accumulator required to damp the signal would need = to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess) So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s = way to big. Ed, did I understand you right that a small fuel filter can do the = trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume. I suppose if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to takes = to damp out the pulses. Can I ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal and = what was the solution that worked best. Paul Lamar advocates tapping the signal from the oil injection ports. = Has/is anyone using this solution? Thanks very much everyone. Steve Izett Glasair Super II RG Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7442 / Virus Database: 4627/12702 - Release Date: = 07/28/16 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1E972.4382BC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve,
 
Just about any device that uses MAP sensors can be/ may be = seriously=20 effected by the powerful wave forms in the intake manifold. 
 
We have found this on the EC2 as well as the Pmag electronic = ignitions=20 (which also uses a MAP sensor).  One reason it does not  = happen all=20 the time is that the complexity of the wave forms and where they = interact=20 (add/subtract) with each other as well as you manifold sensing port = location,=20 manifold shape, rpm (and undoubtedly even more factors)  and it can = either=20 result in no problem at all =E2=80=93 or a major problem. 
 
Since rpm has a significant influence on the creation of finite = amplitude=20 waves, its not surprising that you may have no problem at one rpm and a=20 significant one at a different rpm.
 
You problem may not be the result of MAP influence =E2=80=93 but, = since it is=20 rather easy to stick a restrictor (or a small plastic fuel filter) in = the line=20 and then see if that has any effect on the problem, I would try that = first,=20 before tearing into anything.  If it does not show any impact, then = you=20 have not spent a lot of time or money.
 
Just my $0.02 worth.
 
Ed
 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 7:50 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing
 
Hi=20 Steve=20
Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I installed a mig = welding=20 tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me.
 
Cheers
Christian

On Friday, 29 July 2016, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
Hi=20 Guys

We did further testing of the Renesis today. Would really=20 appreciate your heads on this.
Last series of tests we had this = major=20 missing and noise which I think is fuel exploding in the = exhaust.
This=20 happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the adjustable = prop.
With fine=20 pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking this=20 mayhem.
With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before the same=20 symptoms.
From memory these were both at about 22-23 inches of = Hg.
My=20 Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present.
The narrowband response = time=20 appears to slow to discover what the mixture is doing during the=20 episodes.

Also still having trouble with the EM3. Sometimes = display=20 reads what appears to be an error message and at other times stops = reading=20 RPM.
The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at the same RPM = so=20 appears directly related.
I changed the input on the Skyview to the = Standard RPM input as I incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the = lower=20 voltage input, but this made no difference.

I had wondered if = the=20 secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting power and as a consequence = when it staged=20 to all 4 injectors the trouble began.
Using the EM3 display = (staging=20 asterisk) and switching power off to the secondaries I was able to = ascertain=20 that the secondaries appear to be functioning fine.
I did notice = that the=20 point of staging appears to be not solid.
This takes me back to = Ed=E2=80=99s=20 comments re damping the manifold signal to the EC2.
Sorry Ed, you = might=20 have had it right last week. I thought because it was running so = smoothly up=20 to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal issue.
Maybe the = wavelength/timing of=20 those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the manifold signal tap = position!

Ed,=20 you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate the = volume of=20 the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres.
My gut was that = the=20 accumulator required to damp the signal would need to be an order of = magnitude=20 larger. (total guess)
So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a = Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s=20 way to big.
Ed, did I understand you right that a small fuel filter = can do=20 the trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in = volume.
I suppose=20 if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to takes to damp = out the=20 pulses.

Can I ask the group please. Who had trouble with = manifold=20 signal and what was the solution that worked best.
Paul Lamar = advocates=20 tapping the signal from the oil injection ports. Has/is anyone using = this=20 solution?

Thanks very much everyone.

Steve = Izett
Glasair=20 Super II RG
Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3=20 RD1-C








--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7442 / = Virus=20 Database: 4627/12702 - Release Date:=20 07/28/16

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