X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.202] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6600086 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:10:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.202; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.72]) by omr-d05.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 5854070002C5A for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-dsc003b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dsc003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.253.73]) by mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 05D19E000089 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:09:37 -0500 (EST) From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <3658c.34fa6b42.3fb6b230@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:09:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Digest Activity To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3658c.34fa6b42.3fb6b230_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 56 X-Originating-IP: [67.184.240.46] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1384470577; bh=X6hqeAk9EGFBcSmTmFKIRFR6sSf8M5xJ5353yqBadfQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WCCwKJL9BJc0u5n6sERZaNVMGfOT2U80yv8JxI7sYHIkvW1ficyTJsqJPKEeVqQ29 XfRLsCZyunGsO0gsx0wti+3pTLfy8Iz+AEdLz0TqDi+pqumLaAZQOMxkvxUFwpYSJ4 QjUVW8PWQCAxUjiS9LEC046iM6D2d1/mkh/A24L0= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d2948528558314adb --part1_3658c.34fa6b42.3fb6b230_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Bill, What would help if you were to fly the plane as if the engine were a = =20 big bore aircraft engine, =20 All of your engine control movements should be slow. The overspeeding=20 problem is not restricted to electric props. Go to your local airport and = watch=20 and listen to aircraft such as Bonanzas take off. You will quickly see the= =20 difference between the airplane drivers and the pilots. The hydraulic=20 governor also has a lag and what you will hear on takeoff is the engine=20 overspeeding due to too fast movement of the throttle. there is no reason = to=20 advance the throttle quickly, even in an IFR missed approach. =20 In fact with engines with dynamic crank balancers (I know the rotaries =20 don't have that problem) fast movement of the throttle will cause the balan= cing=20 weights to bang against their stops leading to possible damage. =20 Nothing wrong with carrying a little power on final. All of the bigger =20 planes do it. With the prop in fine, you will be flying a steeper approach.= You=20 will also be providing a small amount of power.=20 =20 rich =20 =20 In a message dated 11/14/2013 4:44:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, =20 bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: =20 Rich,=20 I am learning how to land with the prop set for TO power and getting=20 better at it. In fact, I would have to learn all over again to switch so = I will=20 probably stay with the former method. The problem is that the prop is=20 such a brake, I have to carry power to touchdown. If I chop power, the pl= ane=20 just stops flying and falls to the runway due to the braking effect of the= =20 flat prop. Also since it is electric and somewhat slow to respond, I have= =20 to feed power in gradually else it will over speed the engine. I like to= =20 keep it below 7100 rpm.=20 B2=20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = =20 Behalf Of ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Digest Activity =20 B2, =20 =20 I suggest that you reconsider setting the prop as suggested. Perhaps Mark= =20 is used to flying fixed props and wants to operate his controllable prop= =20 like one of those. this defeats one of the greatest benefits of the C/S p= rop. =20 =20 When you go to fine pitch, your choice of when, certainly not in your=20 initial decent, (I do it on final,) =20 enrich your mixture to T.O setting and when you flatten the prop to T.O.,= =20 it acts like a wonderful speed brake, enabling you to do a steeper =20 approach. =20 =20 The other effect is that if and when you have to do a go-around, the prop= =20 is already set at T.O pitch, and all you have to worry about is advancing= =20 the throttle for max climb. =20 =20 Perhaps I missed the beginning of this string, but it is beyond my=20 comprehension why anybody would spend the extra bucks on a prop that give= s you=20 better T.O and climb, while sacrificing possibly some top end speed, and n= ot=20 use it to it's maximum capability, especially in the light of a go-around= =20 and landings. Perhaps some dual with an instructor who flies complex=20 aircraft will help. =20 =20 I don't think that you will ever find a pilot of a store bought craft with= =20 a c/s prop that would think of landing with any setting other than t.o.=20 fine. Remember GUMPS The M stands for Mixture (rich) the P stands for Prop= =20 (T.O. fine pitch). With quadrant throttles, full forward on mixture and pr= op=20 or mixtures and props. With vernier, mixture in then prop in. If your=20 governor is set correctly and you don't ram the controls in or operate the= prop=20 control too quickly, you will find it a great thing to use. =20 =20 If you do not have a C/S governor, as part of your initial setup, you will= =20 have created a fine pitch stop and use your pitch switch to get it there= =20 and the blade flattening will stop appropriately. =20 =20 Maximize the use of your equipment--- you paid for it. =20 =20 Rich =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 11/14/2013 3:46:01 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: =20 Mark,=20 I tried setting the prop for a more coarse setting prior to landing like= =20 you describe. I probably come in too fast, but with the prop set like tha= t,=20 I floated in ground effect almost the length of the runway, then when I=20 added power to go around, I didn=E2=80=99t have much climb power. I tried= it a few=20 times and it was similar each time. I could probably learn to land that= =20 way, but I gave it up and went back to the brake effect you get with a fla= t=20 prop when you cut the power.=20 I will try the learning method you describe to see if that fixes the surge= =20 problem.=20 You haven=E2=80=99t reported on how your plane is doing with the new pane= l???=20 B2=20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On= =20 Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 2:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Digest Activity =20 =20 =20 =20 Bill, =20 I also have an M/T electric prop. I discovered a long time ago that my = =20 landings are more predictable if I switch the prop over to manual mode prio= r =20 to entering the pattern. I typically level off about 3-5 miles out, =20 change the prop rpm to 2100, wait for it to re-adjust itself, then switch t= o =20 manual mode. This makes the prop behave like a fixed-pitch, and from this= =20 point to touchdown I fly it like a fixed-pitch prop. =20 Regarding your surging issue, Tracy suggested to me to simulate a =20 landing, but at a safe altitude. Set up as if you were in the pattern pre= paring=20 to land, and then put the EM-2 into auto-tune mode. Let the EM-2 tune the= =20 settings which are impossible to tune on the ground. Worked for me. Thanks, Mark =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Bill Bradburry=20 <_bbradburry@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net) > wrote:=20 =20 =20 Jack, =20 I think everybody is waiting for an opportunity to help someone with a=20 problem. So I am always ready with one that I can use a little assist on.= =20 I am having an engine surge and wildly fluctuating mixture when I get into= =20 the pattern and reduce the manifold pressure to around 15 inches and=20 below. I have an MT electric constant speed prop, so my engine rpm at thi= s time=20 is pretty high, usually around 6K. This is an area that can not be tuned= =20 on the ground and I suspect that is the problem, however, the MAP table is= =20 at the factory setting of zero in areas that I have not tuned. It can get= =20 pretty exciting when it starts so I would like to get it ironed out.=20 Others having similar problems or how to go about the fix?=20 Bill B=20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) ] On Behalf Of _marv@lancair.net_=20 (mailto:marv@lancair.net)=20 Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Digest Activity =20 HI Jack,=20 I checked and found your subscription to be intact. It appears that there= =20 has been no Flyrotary traffic since 11/3. Very strange, indeed... but it = =20 happens I guess. Could be everybody's buttoning down for the winter... =20 we'll see.=20 =20 "Jack Hilditch" <_wmjack@t3cs.net_ (mailto:wmjack@t3cs.net) >: > Good morning, > =20 >=20 >=20 > I watch for the digest every morning but the last one that arrived is=20 >flyrotary > Digest #3834 dated 11/04/2013. Have I been unsubscribed for some unknown= =20 >reason > or has the list simply gone quiet? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks very much, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Jack >=20 >=20 > =20 > Jack Hilditch, MCP >=20 > T3CS Systems Support > =20 > 205 Storrs Road >=20 > Mansfield Center, CT 06250 >=20 > Cell _860-729-6948_ (tel:860-729-6948) =20 >=20 > _wmjack@t3cs.net_=20 (mailto:wmjack@t3cs.net)=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 -- =20 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ =20 Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --part1_3658c.34fa6b42.3fb6b230_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Bill, What would help if you were to fly the plane as if the engine we= re a=20 big bore aircraft engine,
 
All of your engine control movements should be slow. The=20 overspeeding problem is not restricted to electric props. Go to your local= =20 airport and watch and listen to aircraft such as Bonanzas take off. You wil= l=20 quickly see the difference between the airplane drivers and the pilots. The= =20 hydraulic governor also has a lag and what you will hear on takeoff is the= =20 engine overspeeding due to too fast movement of the throttle. there is no r= eason=20 to advance the throttle quickly, even in an IFR missed approach.
 
In fact with engines with dynamic crank balancers (I know the rotaries= =20 don't have that problem) fast movement of the throttle will cause the balan= cing=20 weights to bang against their stops leading to possible damage.
 
Nothing wrong with carrying a little power on final. All of the bigger= =20 planes do it. With the prop in fine, you will be flying a steeper approach.= You=20 will also be providing a small amount of power.
 
rich
 
In a message dated 11/14/2013 4:44:49 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes:
=

Rich,

 

I am learning = how to=20 land with the prop set for TO power and getting better at it.  In fa= ct, I=20 would have to learn all over again to switch so I will probably stay with= the=20 former method.  The problem is that the prop is such a brake, I have= to=20 carry power to touchdown.  If I chop power, the plane just stops fly= ing=20 and falls to the runway due to the braking effect of the flat prop. = Also=20 since it is electric and somewhat slow to respond, I have to feed power i= n=20 gradually else it will over speed the engine.  I like to keep it bel= ow=20 7100 rpm.

 

B2<= /SPAN>

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 = 5:29=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Di= gest=20 Activity

 

B2,

 

I suggest tha= t you=20 reconsider setting the prop as suggested. Perhaps Mark is used to flying = fixed=20 props and wants to operate his controllable prop like one of those. this= =20 defeats one of the greatest benefits of the C/S=20 prop.

 

When you go t= o fine=20 pitch, your choice of when, certainly not in your initial decent, (I do i= t on=20 final,)

enrich your m= ixture=20 to T.O setting and when you flatten the prop to T.O., it acts like a wond= erful=20 speed brake, enabling you to do a steeper=20 approach.

 

The other eff= ect is=20 that if and when you have to do a go-around, the prop is already set at T= .O=20 pitch, and all you have to worry about is advancing the throttle for max= =20 climb.

 

Perhaps=20 I missed the beginning of this string, but it is beyond my comprehen= sion=20 why anybody would spend the extra bucks on a prop=20 that gives you better T.O and climb, while sacrificing possibly= some=20 top end speed, and not use it to it's maximum capability, especially in t= he=20 light of a go-around and landings. Perhaps some dual with an instructor= =20 who flies complex aircraft will help.

 

I don't think= that=20 you will ever find a pilot of a store bought craft with a c/s prop that w= ould=20 think of landing with any setting other than t.o. fine. Remember GUMPS Th= e M=20 stands for Mixture (rich) the P stands for Prop (T.O. fine pitch). With= =20 quadrant throttles, full forward on mixture and prop or mixtures and prop= s.=20 With vernier, mixture in then prop in.  If your governor is set corr= ectly=20 and you don't ram the controls in or operate the prop control too quickly= , you=20 will find it a great thing to use.

 

If you do not= have a=20 C/S governor, as part of your initial setup, you will have created a fine= =20 pitch stop and use your pitch switch to get it there and the bl= ade=20 flattening will stop appropriately.

 

Maximize the = use of=20 your equipment--- you paid for it.

 

Rich

 

In a message = dated=20 11/14/2013 3:46:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, bbradburry@bellsouth.net= =20 writes:

Mark,

I tried sett= ing the=20 prop for a more coarse setting prior to landing like you describe. = ; I=20 probably come in too fast, but with the prop set like that, I floated i= n=20 ground effect almost the length of the runway, then when I added power = to go=20 around, I didn=E2=80=99t have much climb power.  I tried it a few = times and it=20 was similar each time.  I could probably learn to land that way, b= ut I=20 gave it up and went back to the brake effect you get with a flat prop w= hen=20 you cut the power.

 <= /o:p>

I will try t= he=20 learning method you describe to see if that fixes the surge=20 problem.

 <= /o:p>

You haven=E2= =80=99t=20 reported on how your plane is doing with the new=20 panel???

 <= /o:p>

B2

 <= /o:p>

From:=20 Rotary mot= ors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancairon= line.net]=20 On Behalf Of Mark=20 Steitle
Sent: Thursd= ay,=20 November 14, 2013 2:35 PM
To: Rotary mot= ors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Digest=20 Activity

 =

Bill,=20

I=20 also have an M/T electric prop.  I discovered a long time ago that= my=20 landings are more predictable if I switch the prop over to manual mode = prior=20 to entering the pattern.  I typically level off about 3-5 miles ou= t,=20 change the prop rpm to 2100, wait for it to re-adjust itself, then swit= ch to=20 manual mode.  This makes the prop behave like a fixed-pitch, and f= rom=20 this point to touchdown I fly it like a fixed-pitch prop. =20

Regarding your surging issue,= =20 Tracy suggested to me to simulate= a=20 landing, but at a safe altitude.  Set up as if you were in the pat= tern=20 preparing to land, and then put the EM-2 into auto-tune mode.  Let= the=20 EM-2 tune the settings which are impossible to tune on the ground. = ;=20 Worked for me.

Thanks,
Mark

 =

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:06 P= M, Bill=20 Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:

Jack,=20

I think ever= ybody=20 is waiting for an opportunity to help someone with a problem.  So = I am=20 always ready with one that I can use a little assist on.<= FONT=20 color=3Dblack>

 

I am having = an=20 engine surge and wildly fluctuating mixture when I get into the pattern= and=20 reduce the manifold pressure to around 15 inches and below.  I hav= e an=20 MT electric constant speed prop, so my engine rpm at this time is prett= y=20 high, usually around 6K.  This is an area that can not be tuned on= the=20 ground and I suspect that is the problem, however, the MAP table is at = the=20 factory setting of zero in areas that I have not tuned.  It can ge= t=20 pretty exciting when it starts so I would like to get it ironed=20 out.

 

Others havin= g=20 similar problems or how to go about the fix?

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary mot= ors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of marv@lancair.net
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 201= 3 12:08=20 PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Digest=20 Activity

 =

HI=20 Jack,

 

I checked a= nd=20 found your subscription to be intact.  It appears that there has b= een=20 no Flyrotary traffic since 11/3.  Very strange, indeed... but it= =20 happens I guess.  Could be everybody's buttoning down for the wint= er...=20 we'll see.

 

 =20 <marv>



 "Jack=20 Hilditch" <wmjack@t3cs.net>:

> Good morning,
&= gt;=20
>
>
> I watch for the digest every morning but the= last=20 one that arrived is
>flyrotary
> Digest #3834 dated 11/04/= 2013.=20 Have I been unsubscribed for some unknown
>reason
> or has= the=20 list simply gone quiet?
>
>
>
> Thanks very= =20 much,
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>= =20
> Jack Hilditch, MCP
>
> T3CS Systems Support
&g= t;=20
> 205 Storrs Road
>
>=20 Mansfield= =20 Center, CT 06250
>
> Cell 860-729-6948
>
> <mailto:wmjack@t3cs.net> wmjack@t3cs.net
= >=20
>
>
>
>
>
>=20 

--
&nb=
sp;
Homepage: =
 http://www.flyrotary.com/
<= PRE> 
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.n=
et:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 =

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