X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.146] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6513856 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 13 Oct 2013 16:24:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.189.146; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nschwcmgw07p ([61.9.190.167]) by nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20131013202341.LHTK2030.nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwcmgw07p> for ; Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:23:41 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([121.212.129.177]) by nschwcmgw07p with BigPond Outbound id ckPd1m0013pnPG901kPdAx; Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:23:41 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=BKIxXSsG c=1 sm=1 a=TUgxf8ZIeNcEBUn2PxXlDQ==:17 a=71RPzZn0S80A:10 a=JDadKst33uMA:10 a=1IlZJK9HAAAA:8 a=LBjDOcF6530A:10 a=0qqORytXAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=KQ1Wv_bSAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=gzzt_TxfAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=-eZbEhjMC2OTA1wUfFMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=iKhjpyunHcQA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=OTd0EVhx4b017HI1:21 a=vTA9jPYPaWIy1HNX:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=acNfuaCQAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=tkhocV7xofiBg8dBcK4A:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=ev2UoL6Eg40A:10 a=QSmc0Ec9vTIA:10 a=Zi1tvhrah7YENdmg:21 a=MmoLG3xCjdz-kTo-:21 a=Ky6GUAzkDxUylyTf:21 a=TUgxf8ZIeNcEBUn2PxXlDQ==:117 Message-ID: <8983B71E984F4363A20A396FD437C746@UserPC> From: "Neil Unger" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 07:23:33 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01CEC8AE.4A5C7100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CEC8AE.4A5C7100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding coolants of both types, what is the current thinking of = running a thermostat, yes , no or possibly? Neil. From: Al Wick=20 Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Good discussion on that link Michael. Although I noticed one of the = posters referred to 30% glycol mix as 70%. Making it quite confusing.=20 Over the years, I've encountered pilots who've done good job of = measuring Evans vs. glycol temperatures. We would expect them to have = 20% higher temps, but usually find 15% or so. I'm always intrigued when = the occasional person describes that Evans reduced their temp. It defies = physics. But when you think about it, it's possible that person started = out with trapped air in system. When converting to Evans, he may have = eliminated that trapped air. Thus sees much improved cooling. That's my = best guess. That and pareidolia.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael Silvius=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 4:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Al: I did a bit more digging on the stuff and came up with this which = makes the same point. = http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/skeptical-eva= ns-npg-coolant-945513/ Michael Silvius Scarborough, Maine ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 10:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid heat = transfer experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid in = your radiator, replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) = you'd have identical boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to = Evans product. So you could operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil = over until it reached 392F.=20 Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat transfer = coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being equal, = you have to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same = engine operating temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, = that's quite a penalty.=20 Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can tune = it's efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to operate = with more efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from = .66 to .86. You get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have = 230F boiling point.=20 Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get sucked = in. It's one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far = inferior to glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this = fluid at lower temperatures. Its been a while, but as I recall this = fluid turns into heavy syrup at lower temps. You can visualize your = water pump churning (cavitating) in a void of this fluid at low = temperatures while not moving any through your cooling system. =20 The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot -while = that in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug to = coolant flow =E2=80=93 until the heated fluid explosively forces the = issue. I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the = site, but could not find it.=20 My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years ago, = was that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a = draw back compared to the benefits in a racing motor =E2=80=93 heated = garage, summer temps, etc. But, might be a different story for aircraft = application. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling=20 Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? This appears interesting. I looked at the website and was unable = to find the heat capacity of the fluid. The higher boiling temp may not = be helpful if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T to = transfer the same amount of heat as a water-based system. =20 One must also consider the effect of the higher operating = temperature on engine oils. At some temperature, oil loses its = lubrication ability. I don=E2=80=99t know what that temp is but assume = it is different for different oils. Just because the coolant allows = higher operating temperatures, doesn=E2=80=99t mean one should do that. =20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. =20 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Michael Silvius Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] waterless coolant? =20 While on the subject of cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried = the waterless coolant? Seems to offer some advantages, namely higher = boiling boint and low pressure, is there any reason it should not be = used in our aplication? http://www.evanscooling.com/ =20 Michael No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date: = 10/10/13 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CEC8AE.4A5C7100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding coolants of both types, what is the current thinking of = running a=20 thermostat, yes , no or possibly?  Neil.
 
From: Al Wick
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:08 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless = coolant?
 
Good discussion on that link Michael. Although I noticed one of the = posters=20 referred to 30% glycol mix as 70%. Making it quite confusing.
 
Over the years, I've encountered pilots who've done good job of = measuring=20 Evans vs. glycol temperatures. We would expect them to have 20% higher = temps,=20 but usually find 15% or so. I'm always intrigued when the occasional = person=20 describes that Evans reduced their temp. It defies physics. But when you = think=20 about it, it's possible that person started out with trapped air in = system. When=20 converting to Evans, he may have eliminated that trapped air. Thus sees = much=20 improved cooling. That's my best guess. That and pareidolia.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael = Silvius=20
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 = 4:16=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?
 
Al:
 
I did a bit more = digging on the=20 stuff and came up with this which makes the same point.
http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-spe= cific-1993-2002-16/skeptical-evans-npg-coolant-945513/
 
Michael = Silvius
Scarborough, = Maine
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Wick
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, October 11, = 2013 10:33=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?
 
I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid = heat=20 transfer experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid = in your=20 radiator, replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) = you'd=20 have identical boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to = Evans=20 product. So you could operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil = over until=20 it reached 392F.
 
Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat = transfer=20 coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being = equal, you=20 have to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same = engine=20 operating temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, = that's quite=20 a penalty.
 
Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can = tune=20 it's efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to = operate with=20 more efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from = .66 to=20 .86. You get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have 230F = boiling=20 point.
 
Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get = sucked in.=20 It's one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far = inferior=20 to glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = 2013=20 11:15 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?
 
You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this = fluid=20 at lower temperatures.  Its been a while, but as I recall = this=20 fluid  turns into heavy syrup at lower temps.  You can = visualize=20 your water pump churning (cavitating)  in a void of this = fluid at low=20 temperatures while not moving any through your cooling = system. =20
 
The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot  = -while=20 that in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug = to=20 coolant flow =E2=80=93 until the heated fluid explosively forces = the issue.
 
I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the = site,=20 but could not find it.
 
My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years = ago, was=20 that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a = draw=20 back  compared to the benefits in a racing motor =E2=80=93 = heated garage,=20 summer temps, etc.  But, might be a different story for = aircraft=20 application.
 
Ed
 
Edward=20 L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC=20 = 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless = coolant?
 

This=20 appears interesting.  I looked at the website and was unable = to find=20 the heat capacity of the fluid.  The higher boiling temp may = not be=20 helpful if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T = to=20 transfer the same amount of heat as a water-based=20 system.

 

One=20 must also consider the effect of the higher operating temperature = on=20 engine oils.  At some temperature, oil loses its lubrication=20 ability.  I don=E2=80=99t know what that temp is but assume = it is different=20 for different oils.  Just because the coolant allows higher = operating=20 temperatures, doesn=E2=80=99t mean one should do = that.

 

Gordon=20 C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Michael Silvius
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 = 1:19=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 waterless coolant?

 

While on the = subject of=20 cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried the waterless coolant? = Seems to=20 offer some advantages, namely higher boiling boint and low = pressure, is=20 there any reason it should not be used in our=20 aplication?

http://www.evanscooling.com/

 

Michael

No virus found in this = message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: = 2013.0.3408 / Virus=20 Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date:=20 = 10/10/13

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