X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6512226 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:34:19 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=KLbY/S5o c=1 sm=0 a=8784VxN1RgZhBaSzA3ibpA==:17 a=KWPSR_H0u7wA:10 a=71RPzZn0S80A:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=LBjDOcF6530A:10 a=0qqORytXAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=KQ1Wv_bSAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=gzzt_TxfAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=-eZbEhjMC2OTA1wUfFMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=iKhjpyunHcQA:10 a=AcSaDQtcpv8A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=vnu0FY2ff9XtvLUF:21 a=CHRT2VJvo40vq_IE:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=acNfuaCQAAAA:8 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=deVecT4bzEfi4L1lbsIA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=ev2UoL6Eg40A:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=QSmc0Ec9vTIA:10 a=SfEyYeLcj6qY-qzz:21 a=2Vkj1K9vL0z1Nfba:21 a=MNPpLJrEX13OsWx_:21 a=8784VxN1RgZhBaSzA3ibpA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Authenticated-User: X-Originating-IP: 174.110.171.30 Received: from [174.110.171.30] ([174.110.171.30:59605] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 41/01-28876-9CC78525; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 22:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:33:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CEC6B0.6036F040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3508.205 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3508.205 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CEC6B0.6036F040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the reference and analysis, Michael One of you charts points out that at 50F, Evans fluid is 50 times the = viscosity of water =E2=80=93 and it goes up even more as the temperature = decreases.=20 This makes it very difficult at cold temperatures to push the fluid = through radiators and as we know - if flow is down - so is cooling = effectiveness. At sufficiently low temperatures, I believe you would = find that the pump caveates in the fluid rather than moving it through = the radiator. This leads to the non-moving fluid in the engine block = increasingly absorbing heat =E2=80=93 without being able to transfer it = to a radiator/air until finally the heated fluid builds up sufficient = pressure to blow through the weakest points =E2=80=93 perhaps radiator = hoses/clamps/pump seals, etc. Not for our application - in my opinion Ed From: Michael Silvius=20 Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Al: I did a bit more digging on the stuff and came up with this which makes = the same point. http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/skeptical-eva= ns-npg-coolant-945513/ Michael Silvius Scarborough, Maine ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 10:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid heat = transfer experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid in = your radiator, replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) = you'd have identical boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to = Evans product. So you could operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil = over until it reached 392F.=20 Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat transfer = coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being equal, = you have to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same = engine operating temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, = that's quite a penalty.=20 Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can tune = it's efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to operate = with more efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from = .66 to .86. You get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have = 230F boiling point.=20 Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get sucked in. = It's one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far = inferior to glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this fluid = at lower temperatures. Its been a while, but as I recall this fluid = turns into heavy syrup at lower temps. You can visualize your water = pump churning (cavitating) in a void of this fluid at low temperatures = while not moving any through your cooling system. =20 The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot -while that = in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug to coolant = flow =E2=80=93 until the heated fluid explosively forces the issue. I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the site, = but could not find it.=20 My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years ago, = was that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a = draw back compared to the benefits in a racing motor =E2=80=93 heated = garage, summer temps, etc. But, might be a different story for aircraft = application. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling=20 Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? This appears interesting. I looked at the website and was unable to = find the heat capacity of the fluid. The higher boiling temp may not be = helpful if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T to = transfer the same amount of heat as a water-based system. =20 One must also consider the effect of the higher operating = temperature on engine oils. At some temperature, oil loses its = lubrication ability. I don=E2=80=99t know what that temp is but assume = it is different for different oils. Just because the coolant allows = higher operating temperatures, doesn=E2=80=99t mean one should do that. =20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. =20 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Michael Silvius Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] waterless coolant? =20 While on the subject of cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried = the waterless coolant? Seems to offer some advantages, namely higher = boiling boint and low pressure, is there any reason it should not be = used in our aplication? http://www.evanscooling.com/ =20 Michael No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date: = 10/10/13 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6741 - Release Date: = 10/11/13 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CEC6B0.6036F040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the reference and analysis, Michael
 
One of you charts points out that at 50F, Evans fluid is 50 times = the=20 viscosity of water =E2=80=93 and it goes up even more as the temperature = decreases.=20
 
This makes it very difficult at cold temperatures to push the fluid = through=20 radiators and as we know - if flow is down - so is cooling = effectiveness. =20 At sufficiently low temperatures, I believe you would find that the pump = caveates in the fluid rather than moving it through the radiator.  = This=20 leads to the non-moving fluid in the engine block increasingly absorbing = heat =E2=80=93=20 without being able to transfer it to a radiator/air until finally the = heated=20 fluid builds up sufficient pressure to blow through the weakest points = =E2=80=93 perhaps=20 radiator hoses/clamps/pump seals, etc.
 
Not for our application - in my opinion
 
 
Ed
 
 
 
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless = coolant?
 
Al:
 
I did a bit more = digging on the=20 stuff and came up with this which makes the same point.
http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-spe= cific-1993-2002-16/skeptical-evans-npg-coolant-945513/
 
Michael = Silvius
Scarborough, = Maine
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al Wick =
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 = 10:33=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?
 
I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid heat = transfer experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid in = your=20 radiator, replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) = you'd have=20 identical boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to Evans = product. So=20 you could operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil over until it = reached=20 392F.
 
Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat = transfer=20 coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being = equal, you=20 have to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same engine=20 operating temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, that's = quite a=20 penalty.
 
Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can = tune it's=20 efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to operate with = more=20 efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from .66 to = .86. You=20 get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have 230F boiling = point.=20
 
Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get sucked = in.=20 It's one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far = inferior to=20 glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = 2013 11:15=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?
 
You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this = fluid at=20 lower temperatures.  Its been a while, but as I recall this = fluid =20 turns into heavy syrup at lower temps.  You can visualize your = water=20 pump churning (cavitating)  in a void of this fluid at low = temperatures=20 while not moving any through your cooling system. 
 
The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot  = -while=20 that in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug to = coolant=20 flow =E2=80=93 until the heated fluid explosively forces the = issue.
 
I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the = site, but=20 could not find it.
 
My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years = ago, was=20 that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a = draw=20 back  compared to the benefits in a racing motor =E2=80=93 = heated garage,=20 summer temps, etc.  But, might be a different story for = aircraft=20 application.
 
Ed
 
Edward L.=20 Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC=20 = 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless = coolant?
 

This=20 appears interesting.  I looked at the website and was unable to = find=20 the heat capacity of the fluid.  The higher boiling temp may = not be=20 helpful if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T = to=20 transfer the same amount of heat as a water-based=20 system.

 

One=20 must also consider the effect of the higher operating temperature on = engine=20 oils.  At some temperature, oil loses its lubrication = ability.  I=20 don=E2=80=99t know what that temp is but assume it is different for = different=20 oils.  Just because the coolant allows higher operating = temperatures,=20 doesn=E2=80=99t mean one should do that.

 

Gordon=20 C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Michael=20 Silvius
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:19 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] waterless=20 coolant?

 

While on the = subject of=20 cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried the waterless coolant? = Seems to=20 offer some advantages, namely higher boiling boint and low pressure, = is=20 there any reason it should not be used in our=20 aplication?

http://www.evanscooling.com/

 

Michael

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3408 = / Virus=20 Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date:=20 10/10/13

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3408 / = Virus=20 Database: 3222/6741 - Release Date: = 10/11/13

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