X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with SMTP id 6511594 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:34:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1381505633; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=Slf9ZOsOm0/W1NxribchlHmLx3VCxGBfH1vGtAOq9uE5LtNCmfOQXhCuwWa3+Zcwy hsTKDk/3iCgxcCmlfYI5i64sekotRoJoHR5dMBW9T84u/qlAAEQo7EhlhsUeNFlOts nXzZ3vnDeV7xwbfTcneBJ1TbsrXf/qW74wcBQyVg= Received: from Penny (50-39-185-106.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.185.106]) by smtpout02.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABKFSGURA5CVMLJ for (sender ); Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8E7B285AE45747C9811F3FD33DC44024@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:33:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0519_01CEC65C.92EA90E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-Originating-Ip: 50.39.185.106 X-UNTD-BodySize: 15545 X-ContentStamp: 33:16:2450433538 X-MAIL-INFO: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 4dcde4e0e0e5ad00e9f4592061fd05b99159a9515975758070f1b42da965b575a979511d35 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkJ53xxH9wPEkNaBwIYFlTWTAD3lMoorWdQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.32|smtpout02.dca.untd.com|smtpout02.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0519_01CEC65C.92EA90E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid heat transfer experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid in your radiator, replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) you'd have identical boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to Evans product. So you could operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil over until it reached 392F. Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat transfer coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being equal, you have to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same engine operating temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, that's quite a penalty. Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can tune it's efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to operate with more efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from .66 to .86. You get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have 230F boiling point. Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get sucked in. It's one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far inferior to glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades. -al wick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this fluid at lower temperatures. Its been a while, but as I recall this fluid turns into heavy syrup at lower temps. You can visualize your water pump churning (cavitating) in a void of this fluid at low temperatures while not moving any through your cooling system. The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot -while that in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug to coolant flow – until the heated fluid explosively forces the issue. I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the site, but could not find it. My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years ago, was that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a draw back compared to the benefits in a racing motor – heated garage, summer temps, etc. But, might be a different story for aircraft application. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless coolant? This appears interesting. I looked at the website and was unable to find the heat capacity of the fluid. The higher boiling temp may not be helpful if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T to transfer the same amount of heat as a water-based system. One must also consider the effect of the higher operating temperature on engine oils. At some temperature, oil loses its lubrication ability. I don’t know what that temp is but assume it is different for different oils. Just because the coolant allows higher operating temperatures, doesn’t mean one should do that. Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Michael Silvius Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] waterless coolant? While on the subject of cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried the waterless coolant? Seems to offer some advantages, namely higher boiling boint and low pressure, is there any reason it should not be used in our aplication? http://www.evanscooling.com/ Michael No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date: 10/10/13 ------=_NextPart_000_0519_01CEC65C.92EA90E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
I've researched this product thoroughly and used to do fluid heat = transfer=20 experiments in my occupation. If you drained all the fluid in your = radiator,=20 replaced it with 100% antifreeze (normal ethylene glycol) you'd have = identical=20 boiling point and heat transfer characteristics to Evans product. So you = could=20 operate zero pressure, as it wouldn't boil over until it reached 392F. =
 
Unfortunately both Evans and 100% glycol have very low heat = transfer=20 coefficient (.66). They are both insulators, so all things being equal, = you have=20 to increase your radiator area by 30% to achieve the same engine = operating=20 temperature. Compared to running with 30% glycol mix, that's quite a = penalty.=20
 
Ethylene glycol is substantially superior to Evans, as you can tune = it's=20 efficiency by adding water. For example, it you decide to operate with = more=20 efficient 50/50 mix, the heat transfer coefficient jumps from .66 to = .86. You=20 get to reduce your radiator size a lot, yet still have 230F boiling = point.=20
 
Evans has a great propaganda web site, a lot of people get sucked = in. It's=20 one of those rare products that has zero redeeming value. Far inferior = to=20 glycol. Yet I bet it will continue to sell for decades.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = 2013 11:15=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = waterless=20 coolant?

You might want to check what happens to the viscosity of this = fluid at=20 lower temperatures.  Its been a while, but as I recall this = fluid =20 turns into heavy syrup at lower temps.  You can visualize your = water pump=20 churning (cavitating)  in a void of this fluid at low = temperatures while=20 not moving any through your cooling system. 
 
The fluid next to the rotors would undoubtedly get hot  = -while that=20 in the radiator and water pump may act as a (Temporary) plug to = coolant flow =E2=80=93=20 until the heated fluid explosively forces the issue.
 
I tried finding the viscosity charts they used to have on the = site, but=20 could not find it.
 
My impression when I looked into this fluid back a few years ago, = was=20 that this heavy viscosity at low temps was probably not much of a draw = back  compared to the benefits in a racing motor =E2=80=93 heated = garage, summer=20 temps, etc.  But, might be a different story for aircraft=20 application.
 
Ed
 
Edward L.=20 Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC=20 = 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: waterless = coolant?
 

This=20 appears interesting.  I looked at the website and was unable to = find the=20 heat capacity of the fluid.  The higher boiling temp may not be = helpful=20 if the heat capacity is such that you need a large delta T to transfer = the=20 same amount of heat as a water-based system.

 

One=20 must also consider the effect of the higher operating temperature on = engine=20 oils.  At some temperature, oil loses its lubrication = ability.  I=20 don=E2=80=99t know what that temp is but assume it is different for = different=20 oils.  Just because the coolant allows higher operating = temperatures,=20 doesn=E2=80=99t mean one should do that.

 

Gordon=20 C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Michael=20 Silvius
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:19 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] waterless=20 coolant?

 

While on the = subject of=20 cooling, I am curious if anyone has tried the waterless coolant? Seems = to=20 offer some advantages, namely higher boiling boint and low pressure, = is there=20 any reason it should not be used in our=20 aplication?

http://www.evanscooling.com/

 

Michael

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3408 / = Virus=20 Database: 3222/6738 - Release Date:=20 10/10/13

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