X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.106] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6001944 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:48:37 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.106; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-98-85-145-180.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.145.180]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20130109044800H06004ufh2e>; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 04:48:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.145.180] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: HICCUP Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 23:48:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008C_01CDEDFA.99E76CA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac3uBXbcowv9+vanTcS5c8NNy/PUqAAHkThg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01CDEDFA.99E76CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I got ready to fly, I sent my injectors out and had them cleaned and flow tested, so they should be ok. I have a 10 micron canister filter after the fuel pumps and a Gascolator between the boost pump and the EFI pumps. There is a finger strainer in each fuel tank outlet to strain out any birds that may be in there. :>) Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Thomas Giddings Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 8:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HICCUP Bill: FWIIW...I believe you have a Lancair...I built one many years ago and I had a similar nagging problem with my IO360...Long story short ...It turned out to be trash in the fuel system from building and working on modifications . I swore it could not be...The Fix was an stainless steel inline racing type fuel filter with removable and cleanable 10 micron stainless filter screen. The Previous one I had would only trap trash that was large enough to have a serial number. It would send trash through the injector nozzles at the worst times shutting fuel off to the cylinder(on top of over cast,over long stretches of water)Did the filter... never missed a beat for the next 800hrs. Probably not your problem...but might be something like that. KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Jan 8, 2013, at 7:39 PM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: Since all I can do from here is speculate, I will speculate. Combustion upsets from ignition faults would be more than occasional. Same for a constant too lean or too rich situation. So, perhaps it is caused by Too hot a heat range in the spark plugs. Try a set of Autolite AR2592 gapped at .015". Or the NGKs in dash 10 heat range or 11.5 heat range. Yes it is very tight, but try it anyway. Nobody will stock these plugs. Need to be an overnight order from Autozone or similar. Use inductive plug wires, if any. Fire both leading and trailing together. No split timing. No low voltage ignition wires anywhere near a high tension wire If you have a peripheral exhaust port, excessive back pressure can occasionally force burning gasses into the intake. This causes a profound misfire. It will not go unnoticed. A Renesis probably has no such problem. No overlap between intake and exhaust. A blast tube on the coils. Reduce timing to 20 degrees. Good up to 9,000 RPM. There was a picture of an exhaust header a few days back, where one tube entered a down tube at a 90 degree angle. This is very bad MOJO. Ideal header design requires two header pipes be the exact same length. Joined at the same shallow angle (Long collector) Header lengths in multiples of 12 inches. If you get a misfire at full throttle, try retarding throttle slightly to see if that cures the problem. If so, it is usually a secondary ignition problem. Gap the plugs tighter and try again. If the problem is cured, then the ignition voltage is marginal for the layout in use. Gap all of the plugs tighter all of the time or use a higher output ignition system. The reason this gag works is this. The higher the cylinder pressure, the more energy it takes to get a spark to jump the gap. Reducing the throttle setting lowers cylinder filling, and cylinder pressure goes down a bit and the plug start firing again. The racer uses NGK R6725-11.5 The 11.5 is the heat range. The higher the number the colder the plug (in the NGK system). These are gapped at .010" Both leading and trailing fire together. Both are powered by MSD6AL with rev limiters. Works great up to 10,000 RPM. A single rotor face misfiring is more like a thump and nothing more, (at higher RPM) your problem sounds like a cross fire or exhaust cross fire. Very pronounced and can cause broken apex seals and sheared off alignment dowels or cracked out alignment dowel holes in the rear iron. Also very bad MOJO. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 1/8/2013 4:51:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: Yes, it is happening at WOT, 2000 ft, 5800 rpm. Staging was long past. Bill B -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01CDEDFA.99E76CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When I got ready to fly, I sent my injectors out and had them cleaned and flow tested, so they should be = ok.  I have a 10 micron canister filter after the fuel pumps and a Gascolator = between the boost pump and the EFI pumps.  There is a finger strainer in = each fuel tank outlet to strain out any birds that may be in there.  = :>)

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Thomas Giddings
Sent: Tuesday, January = 08, 2013 8:05 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = HICCUP

 

Bill: FWIIW...I believe you have a Lancair...I built one many = years ago and I had a similar nagging problem with my IO360...Long story short = ...It turned  out to be trash in the fuel system from building and = working on modifications . I swore it could not be...The Fix was an stainless steel = inline racing type fuel filter with removable and cleanable 10 micron stainless = filter screen. The Previous one I had would only trap trash that was large = enough to have a serial number. It would send trash through the injector nozzles = at the worst times  shutting fuel off to the cylinder(on top of over = cast,over long stretches of water)Did the filter... never missed a beat for the = next 800hrs. Probably not your problem...but might be something like = that.

 

KIND = REGARDS

Thomas = Giddings

727 858 = 1772

 <= /o:p>

 

 

On Jan 8, 2013, at 7:39 PM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:



Since all I can do from here is speculate, I will speculate. Combustion upsets from ignition faults = would be more than occasional. Same for a constant too lean or too rich = situation.

 

=

So, perhaps it is caused by Too = hot a heat range in the spark plugs. Try a set of Autolite AR2592 gapped at .015". Or the NGKs in dash 10 heat range or 11.5 heat range. Yes it = is very tight, but try it anyway. Nobody will stock these plugs. Need to be = an overnight order from Autozone or similar.

 

=

Use inductive plug wires, if any. = Fire both leading and trailing together. No split timing. No low voltage ignition wires anywhere near a high tension = wire  

 

=

If you have a peripheral exhaust = port, excessive back pressure can occasionally force burning gasses into the = intake. This causes a profound misfire. It will not go unnoticed. A Renesis probably has no such problem. No overlap between intake and exhaust. =

 

=

A blast tube on the coils. =

 

=

Reduce timing to 20 degrees. Good = up to 9,000 RPM.

 

=

There was a picture of an exhaust = header a few days back, where one tube entered a down tube at a 90 degree = angle. This is very bad MOJO. Ideal header design requires two header pipes be the = exact same length. Joined at the same shallow angle (Long collector) Header = lengths in multiples of 12 inches.

 

=

If you get a misfire at full = throttle, try retarding throttle slightly to see if that cures the problem. If so, = it is usually a secondary ignition problem.

Gap the plugs tighter and try = again. If the problem is cured, then the ignition voltage is marginal for the = layout in use. Gap all of the plugs tighter all of the time or use a higher output ignition system.

 

=

The reason this gag works is this. = The higher the cylinder pressure, the more energy it takes to get a spark to = jump the gap. Reducing the throttle setting lowers cylinder filling, and = cylinder pressure goes down a bit and the plug start firing = again.

 

=

The racer uses NGK R6725-11.5 The = 11.5 is the heat range. The higher the number the colder the plug (in the NGK = system).

These are gapped at .010" = Both leading and trailing fire together.

Both are powered by MSD6AL with = rev limiters. Works great up to 10,000 RPM.

 

=

A single rotor face misfiring is = more like a thump and nothing more,

(at higher RPM) your problem = sounds like a cross fire or exhaust cross fire. Very pronounced and can cause broken = apex seals and sheared off alignment dowels or cracked out alignment dowel = holes in the rear iron. Also very bad MOJO.

 

=

Lynn E. = Hanover

 

=

 

=

In a message dated 1/8/2013 = 4:51:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes:

Yes, it is happening at WOT, 2000 ft, 5800 rpm.  = Staging was long past.

 

Bill B

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 

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