X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com ([209.85.220.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTPS id 5728243 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 01:04:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.180; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by vcbfw7 with SMTP id fw7so2592834vcb.25 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:04:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=IQQ6ivr87VSZ/1QGuJaTqnYmpwXJYlE9v9DYyeVoMVA=; b=jnfOcdLYX5nwvy27H2m6Z9I6vJVLRBxWjXXlvlYC7xMw9VJ9tt6gdr4Xwm6HDm/TcO lT24yKHtQJU23V+EjhCpcCUZMOcuYI4wKCtr5W4yxts7e357gHNT29ZvLN7KX4il+OuV xnjRFP4NvrqjC2z+ul8LefbWqGfH+1fvbjtMpa80Bg07esr8Hd1De4Rtd7cDvF1Fo0Ba e/R19d5gPLM06ujawXDA4bINQaX9WPY10Go/y/6xiGZQnPeyeOow4T1dn7HNNQ2gLbkT 4Bbw68yasM4lmLRFedOQB8gQ0/ByRWu0dlQgJy8SLNPoLM4rXM32i7HjSr1BTBkO3WqN /7mA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.74.3 with SMTP id p3mr1613532vev.27.1345871041370; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.59.0.129 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:04:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:04:01 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bae44c85599a604c810051a --047d7bae44c85599a604c810051a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Drag racers still use water injection. Most others don't because of the risk of engine damage at those high power outputs although some do on the street. Given the power levels available through ordinary turbocharging (and the fact that 100 octane gas is readily available, something not true for the car guys) there is probably just not that much benefit to water injection. Those WW2 guys were running 60 inches of manifold pressure or more, with engines with much less inherent detonation resistance than Wankels. Realistically, a 13B running at manifold pressures where water injection is actually necessary is going to be making 400HP, probably more. The lifespan of such an engine - water injection or not - is probably just not going to be high enough for comfortable aircraft use. Now, if you want to go to the Reno air races..... On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:43 PM, wrote: > ** > Water and alcohol injection for high blower as on WWII engines. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 8/24/2012 11:51:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > gregw@onestopdesign.biz writes: > > (Old Stories time) In 1981 I bought an RX-7, drove it for a year, and had > it turboed at a speed shop in L.A. No intercoolers for cars in those > days. The way they got around detonation was with water injection. A > cheap windshield washer container and pump, and a vacuum sensor at the > intake. With adjustable boost, it ran great! Sea level was the most > dangerous, had to watch it close there, but going over Sherwin and Donners > summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in almost 9-10 lbs, and that sucker > screamed. Put probably 50K miles on it before I sold it, and never had any > trouble. So, all, would water injection be a good backup for hot days? I > heard that some of the early turbocharged engines during WWII used it, so > why haven't we tried it? > Greg Ward > Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in progress > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* hoursaway1@comcast.net > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, August 24, 2012 8:34 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: > [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. > > > See how much one can learn from one simple sentance. Thanks all for the > update. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary 28hrs. > ------------------------------ > *From: *"David Leonard" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: > [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. > > And just to belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% > efficient. Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress > the air but did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air. > And, the turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds > even more calories. > > All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boost without an > intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra rich and or > retarding the timing. Much better in the long run to use an intercooler. > > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten wrote: > >> Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you compress >> it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasing the >> chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to reap >> any benefit from the turbo. >> >> Dave. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote: >> >> Hay Chris, I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an >> intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the >> racers on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, not >> at 6000+++ feet. just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of a >> muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary >> Lansing MI. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *"Chris Barber" >> *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" >> *Sent: *Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM >> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: >> [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. >> >> Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I have >> as I wanted to start low. >> I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or leak I >> could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove it >> and see if I get good boost >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> >> On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" >> wrote: >> >> Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate >> spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as >> the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo. >> Chris? >> >> Chrissi & Randi >> >> www.CozyGirrrl.com * >> *ClickBonds 10/$7.50 >> CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware >> Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop >> >> In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> andrew@martinag.com.au writes: >> >> Chris >> >> if your blow off valve is before the intercooler, it may just be opening >> too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing all your air to vent, then the >> engine would act as NA but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try >> a heavier spring. >> >> Andrew >> >> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber wrote: >> >>> Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my concern after my cooling >>> skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full power. >>> >>> Trying to determine where the restriction is now. >>> >>> You are the best. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone 4 >>> >>> On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your >>> coolant/oil temps. As you know take-off is the worst combination of low >>> cooling air mass flow and max engine temperature due to WOT. >>> > >>> > You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power you now >>> have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. So I would be >>> certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off until >>> you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook your >>> engine during your first real Turbo climb out. >>> > >>> > I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quick as >>> possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. So that generally >>> meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level >>> off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. Then I could resume climb with >>> cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. >>> Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different >>> platform and cooling set up. >>> > >>> > Ed >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------- >>> > From: "Chris Barber" >>> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM >>> > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question. >>> > >>> >> As I have mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings >>> regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting >>> quite low mp as I add power to higher rpm. >>> >> >>> >> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is that as I add >>> power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in my >>> wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more. >>> >> >>> >> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the turbo >>> hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed the >>> turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results >>> currently confuse me. >>> >> >>> >> With the turbo hooked up I am getting >>> >> >>> >> RPM. MP inches >>> >> 2000 - 14.0 >>> >> 3000 - 15.5 >>> >> 4000 - 19.3 >>> >> 5000 - 21.6 >>> >> 5700 - 24.5 (topped out) >>> >> >>> >> With the turbo removed. >>> >> >>> >> 2000 - 15.8 >>> >> 3000 - 15.3 >>> >> 4000 - 19.7 >>> >> 5000 - 24.8 >>> >> 5833 - 29.8 >>> >> >>> >> Is this indicative of restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the >>> inter cooler? A dirty air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not >>> allowing the air pressure getting to the intake. Or???? >>> >> >>> >> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provide. I >>> am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only have 1.6 >>> hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and input. >>> >> >>> >> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doesn't seem >>> right/comfortable. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks folks. >>> >> >>> >> Chris Barber >>> >> Houston >>> >> Velocity SE >>> >> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >>> >> -- >>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ----- >>> >> No virus found in this message. >>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: >>> 08/20/12 >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards >> >> Andrew Martin >> Martin Ag >> 275 Newmarracarra Rd >> Moonyoonooka WA 6532 >> >> 0427477144 >> 08 99241145 >> andrew@martinag.com.au >> >> > > > -- > > --047d7bae44c85599a604c810051a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drag racers still use water injection.=A0 Most others don't because of = the risk of engine damage at those high power outputs although some do on t= he street.=A0 Given the power levels available through ordinary turbochargi= ng (and the fact that 100 octane gas is readily available, something not tr= ue for the car guys) there is probably just not that much benefit to water = injection.=A0 Those WW2 guys were running 60 inches of manifold pressure or= more, with engines with much less inherent detonation resistance than Wank= els.

Realistically, a 13B running at manifold pressures where water injectio= n is actually necessary is going to be making 400HP, probably more.=A0 The = lifespan of such an engine - water injection or not - is probably just not = going to be high enough for comfortable aircraft use.=A0 Now, if you want t= o go to the Reno air races.....

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:43 PM, <Lehanov= er@aol.com> wrote:
Water and alcohol injection for high blower as on WWII engines.
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover
=A0
In a message dated 8/24/2012 11:51:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 gregw@onestopd= esign.biz writes:
(Old Stories time)=A0 In 1981 I bought an RX= -7,=20 drove it for a year, and had it turboed at a speed shop in L.A.=A0 No=20 intercoolers for cars in those days.=A0 The way they got around detonatio= n=20 was with water injection.=A0 A cheap windshield washer container and pump= ,=20 and a vacuum sensor at the intake.=A0 With adjustable boost, it ran=20 great!=A0 Sea level was the most dangerous, had to watch it close there,= =20 but going over Sherwin and Donners summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in= =20 almost 9-10 lbs, and that sucker screamed.=A0 Put probably 50K miles on i= t=20 before I sold it, and never had any trouble.=A0 So, all, would water=20 injection be a good backup for hot days?=A0 I heard that some of the earl= y=20 turbocharged engines=A0during WWII used it, so why haven't we tried= =20 it?
Greg Ward
Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in progress=
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:3= 4=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Te= mps on=20 Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.


See how=20 much one can learn from one simple sentance.=A0 Thanks all for the=20 update.=A0 David R. Cook=A0 RV6A=A0 Rotary=A0 28hrs.
From: "David Leonard" <wdleonard= @gmail.com>
To:=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e:=20 Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.

And jus= t to=20 belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% efficient.=A0=20 Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air b= ut=20 did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air.=A0 And, the= =20 turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even m= ore=20 calories.

All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boos= t=20 without an intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra ric= h and=20 or retarding the timing.=A0 Much better in the long run to use an=20 intercooler.

David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
htt= p://RotaryRoster.net



On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten= <david.staten@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you comp= ress=20 it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasin= g the=20 chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to = reap=20 any benefit from the turbo.=A0

Dave.=A0

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursawa= y1@comcast.net wrote:

Hay Chris,=A0 I'= ;m=20 not turbo savy, but do you realy need an intercooler,,,,,,,at=20 altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the racers on the gr= ound=20 need them because the air near the ground is hot, not at 6000+++=20 feet.=A0 just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of = a=20 muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice.=A0 David R. Cook= =A0=20 RV6A=A0 Rotary Lansing MI.

From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRo= tary]=20 Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.
Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lo= west=20 I have as I wanted to start low.=A0
I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstructio= n or=20 leak I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I w= ill=20 remove it and see if I get good boost



Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGi= rrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com> wrot= e:

Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the= =20 wastegate spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest b= oost=20 available, as the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced= =20 through the turbo.
Chris?
=A0
Chrissi & Randi

<= a title=3D"http://www.cozygirrrl.com/" href=3D"http://www.cozygirrrl.com/" = target=3D"_blank">www.CozyGirrrl.com
ClickBonds=20 10/$7.50
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen,= =20 Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
=A0
In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight T= ime,=20 andrew@martinag.com.au writes:
Chris

if your blow off valve is befor= e the=20 intercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb spri= ng=20 and allowing all your air to vent, then the engine would act as= NA=20 but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try a heavier= =20 spring.

Andrew

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chr= is Barber=20 <cbarber@te= xasattorney.net> wrote:
Thanks Ed. I am pleased y= ou verified my concern=20 after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full= =20 power.

Trying to determine where the restriction is=20 now.

You are the best.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <= ;eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>=20 Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your= =20 coolant/oil temps. =A0As you know take-off is the worst=20 combination of low cooling air mass flow and max engine=20 temperature due to WOT.
>
> You would be surprise= d how=20 quickly (with the additional power you now have) you will exc= eed=20 your cooling limits if not careful. =A0So I would be certain = to=20 check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off unti= l you=20 know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook = your=20 engine during your first real Turbo climb out.
>
>= ; I=20 find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quic= k as=20 possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. =A0So= =20 that generally meant take off - get safely above surround=20 obstructions, then level off/reduce climb until airspeed hit = 120.=20 =A0Then I could resume climb with cooling gradually bring the= =20 temps down as altitude and airflow increased. =A0Your sweet= =20 spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different= =20 platform and cooling set up.
>
> Ed
>
&g= t;=20 --------------------------------------------------
> Fr= om:=20 "Chris Barber" <c= barber@texasattorney.net>
> Sent:=20 Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM
> To: "Rotary moto= rs in=20 aircraft" <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
> Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Turbo question.
>
>> As I have=20 mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings=20 regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I= am=20 getting quite low mp as I add power to higher=20 rpm.
>>
>> I am not well versed in this are= a but=20 my thought is that as I add power, even with slight boost=20 (currently using a 3 lb spring in my wastegate) eventually my= mp=20 should raise a bit more.
>>
>> Today I did = some=20 static test. I recorded engine RPM with the =A0turbo hooked u= p=20 and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed th= e=20 turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My= =20 results currently confuse me.
>>
>> With th= e=20 turbo hooked up I am getting
>>
>> RPM. =A0= =20 MP inches
>> 2000 - 14.0
>> 3000 -=20 15.5
>> 4000 - 19.3
>> 5000 - 21.6
>&= gt;=20 5700 - 24.5 (topped out)
>>
>> With the tur= bo=20 removed.
>>
>> 2000 - 15.8
>> 3000= -=20 15.3
>> 4000 - 19.7
>> 5000 - 24.8
>&= gt;=20 5833 - 29.8
>>
>> Is this indicative of=20 restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A di= rty=20 air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the ai= r=20 pressure getting to the intake. Or????
>>
>>= ; I=20 am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provid= e. I=20 am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only= have=20 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's directio= n and=20 input.
>>
>> Heck, perhaps this is working= =20 properly but it just doesn't seem=20 right/comfortable.
>>
>> Thanks=20 folks.
>>
>> Chris Barber
>>=20 Houston
>> Velocity SE
>> Rotary 13b turbo = (?)=20 :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from= my=20 iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive=20 and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly= rotary/List.html
>>
>>
>>=20 -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>>= =20 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 20= 12.0.2197 /=20 Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date:=20 08/20/12
>>
>
> --
> Homepage: =A0= http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and=20 UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly= rotary/List.html

--
Homepage:=20 =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive = and UnSub:=20 =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html



--
Regards
=
Andrew Martin
Martin=20 Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA=20 6532

0427477144
08 99241145
andrew@martinag.com.au
=


--=20
<= /blockquote>

--047d7bae44c85599a604c810051a--