X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5728167 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:43:59 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.204]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q7P4hGip017940 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:43:16 -0400 Received: from core-moc003b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-moc003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.195.10]) by mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 9BAE8E000081 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:43:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_bb6df.7a789ccc.3d69b1e3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.30.23] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1345869796; bh=F98yuy2JxDk3GwYzFWrbtswilsOuGOjTQbxUIX7oAR8=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=x0MyFimOARRVnYoONo9dkWGxbmpfG8rHI1bAJxOeBJnAV2EKoyE9Uk+fp9x2OVGLV 5YtUyD0N7iqkn/Ptvsla7Twl/RfzQsi9MyNYgLQshlHc2KwhibKQtCUSWX8VR2pnMV UyGoron0sgvMj8IrrbR5y2ZLY6kMoUB+vC5U1Zf0= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:461791776:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cc503857e344e4 --part1_bb6df.7a789ccc.3d69b1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Water and alcohol injection for high blower as on WWII engines. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 8/24/2012 11:51:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gregw@onestopdesign.biz writes: (Old Stories time) In 1981 I bought an RX-7, drove it for a year, and had it turboed at a speed shop in L.A. No intercoolers for cars in those days. The way they got around detonation was with water injection. A cheap windshield washer container and pump, and a vacuum sensor at the intake. With adjustable boost, it ran great! Sea level was the most dangerous, had to watch it close there, but going over Sherwin and Donners summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in almost 9-10 lbs, and that sucker screamed. Put probably 50K miles on it before I sold it, and never had any trouble. So, all, would water injection be a good backup for hot days? I heard that some of the early turbocharged engines during WWII used it, so why haven't we tried it? Greg Ward Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in progress ----- Original Message ----- From: _hoursaway1@comcast.net_ (mailto:hoursaway1@comcast.net) To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. See how much one can learn from one simple sentance. Thanks all for the update. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary 28hrs. ____________________________________ From: "David Leonard" <_wdleonard@gmail.com_ (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. And just to belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% efficient. Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air but did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air. And, the turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even more calories. All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boost without an intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra rich and or retarding the timing. Much better in the long run to use an intercooler. David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten <_david.staten@gmail.com_ (mailto:david.staten@gmail.com) > wrote: Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you compress it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasing the chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to reap any benefit from the turbo. Dave. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, _hoursaway1@comcast.net_ (mailto:hoursaway1@comcast.net) wrote: Hay Chris, I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the racers on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, not at 6000+++ feet. just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of a muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary Lansing MI. ____________________________________ From: "Chris Barber" <_cbarber@texasattorney.net_ (mailto:cbarber@texasattorney.net) > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I have as I wanted to start low. I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or leak I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove it and see if I get good boost Sent from my iPhone 4 On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "_CozyGirrrl@aol.com_ (mailto:CozyGirrrl@aol.com) " <_CozyGirrrl@aol.com_ (mailto:CozyGirrrl@aol.com) > wrote: Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo. Chris? Chrissi & Randi _www.CozyGirrrl.com_ (http://www.cozygirrrl.com/) ClickBonds 10/$7.50 CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _andrew@martinag.com.au_ (mailto:andrew@martinag.com.au) writes: Chris if your blow off valve is before the intercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing all your air to vent, then the engine would act as NA but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try a heavier spring. Andrew On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber <_cbarber@texasattorney.net_ (mailto:cbarber@texasattorney.net) > wrote: Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my concern after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full power. Trying to determine where the restriction is now. You are the best. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <_eanderson@carolina.rr.com_ (mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com) > wrote: > Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your coolant/oil temps. As you know take-off is the worst combination of low cooling air mass flow and max engine temperature due to WOT. > > You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power you now have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. So I would be certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off until you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook your engine during your first real Turbo climb out. > > I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quick as possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. So that generally meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. Then I could resume climb with cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different platform and cooling set up. > > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Chris Barber" <_cbarber@texasattorney.net_ (mailto:cbarber@texasattorney.net) > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question. > >> As I have mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting quite low mp as I add power to higher rpm. >> >> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is that as I add power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in my wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more. >> >> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the turbo hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed the turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results currently confuse me. >> >> With the turbo hooked up I am getting >> >> RPM. MP inches >> 2000 - 14.0 >> 3000 - 15.5 >> 4000 - 19.3 >> 5000 - 21.6 >> 5700 - 24.5 (topped out) >> >> With the turbo removed. >> >> 2000 - 15.8 >> 3000 - 15.3 >> 4000 - 19.7 >> 5000 - 24.8 >> 5833 - 29.8 >> >> Is this indicative of restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A dirty air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the air pressure getting to the intake. Or???? >> >> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provide. I am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only have 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and input. >> >> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doesn't seem right/comfortable. >> >> Thanks folks. >> >> Chris Barber >> Houston >> Velocity SE >> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-) >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> -- >> Homepage: _http://www.flyrotary.com/_ (http://www.flyrotary.com/) >> Archive and UnSub: _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html_ (http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html) >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - _www.avg.com_ (http://www.avg.com/) >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: 08/20/12 >> > > -- > Homepage: _http://www.flyrotary.com/_ (http://www.flyrotary.com/) > Archive and UnSub: _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html_ (http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html) -- Homepage: _http://www.flyrotary.com/_ (http://www.flyrotary.com/) Archive and UnSub: _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html_ (http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html) -- Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag 275 Newmarracarra Rd Moonyoonooka WA 6532 0427477144 08 99241145 _andrew@martinag.com.au_ (mailto:andrew@martinag.com.au) -- --part1_bb6df.7a789ccc.3d69b1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Water and alcohol injection for high blower as on WWII engines.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 8/24/2012 11:51:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 gregw@onestopdesign.biz writes:
=
(Old Stories time)  In 1981 I bought an R= X-7,=20 drove it for a year, and had it turboed at a speed shop in L.A.  No= =20 intercoolers for cars in those days.  The way they got around detona= tion=20 was with water injection.  A cheap windshield washer container and p= ump,=20 and a vacuum sensor at the intake.  With adjustable boost, it ran=20 great!  Sea level was the most dangerous, had to watch it close ther= e,=20 but going over Sherwin and Donners summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in= =20 almost 9-10 lbs, and that sucker screamed.  Put probably 50K miles o= n it=20 before I sold it, and never had any trouble.  So, all, would water= =20 injection be a good backup for hot days?  I heard that some of the e= arly=20 turbocharged engines during WWII used it, so why haven't we tried=20 it?
Greg Ward
Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in progress
----- Original Message -----
F= rom:=20 hoursaway1@comcast.net
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:= 34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check T= emps on=20 Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.


= See how=20 much one can learn from one simple sentance.  Thanks all for the= =20 update.  David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary  28hrs.
From: "David Leonard" <wdleonard@gmail.com>
T= o:=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent:=20 Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e:=20 Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.

And jus= t to=20 belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% efficient. = =20 Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air b= ut=20 did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air.  And, t= he=20 turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even m= ore=20 calories.

All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boos= t=20 without an intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra ric= h and=20 or retarding the timing.  Much better in the long run to use an=20 intercooler.

David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten <= SPAN=20 dir=3Dltr><david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:
Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you comp= ress=20 it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasin= g the=20 chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to = reap=20 any benefit from the turbo. 

Dave. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote:

Hay Chris, = I'm=20 not turbo savy, but do you realy need an intercooler,,,,,,,at=20 altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the racers on the gr= ound=20 need them because the air near the ground is hot, not at 6000+++=20 feet.  just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead = of a=20 muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice.  David R. Cook&nb= sp;=20 RV6A  Rotary Lansing MI.

From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: "Ro= tary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRo= tary]=20 Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.
Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lo= west=20 I have as I wanted to start low. 
I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstructio= n or=20 leak I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I w= ill=20 remove it and see if I get good boost



Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com> wrote:

Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the= =20 wastegate spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest b= oost=20 available, as the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced= =20 through the turbo.
Chris?
 
Chrissi & Randi

www.CozyGirrrl.com
ClickBonds=20 10/$7.50
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen,= =20 Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
 
In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight T= ime,=20 andrew@martinag.com.au writes:
Chris

if your blow off valve is before the= =20 intercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb spri= ng=20 and allowing all your air to vent, then the engine would act as= NA=20 but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try a heavier= =20 spring.

Andrew

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris= Barber=20 <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:=
Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my con= cern=20 after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full= =20 power.

Trying to determine where the restriction is=20 now.

You are the best.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
<= BR>>=20 Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your= =20 coolant/oil temps.  As you know take-off is the worst=20 combination of low cooling air mass flow and max engine=20 temperature due to WOT.
>
> You would be surprise= d how=20 quickly (with the additional power you now have) you will exc= eed=20 your cooling limits if not careful.  So I would be certa= in to=20 check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off unti= l you=20 know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook = your=20 engine during your first real Turbo climb out.
>
>= ; I=20 find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quic= k as=20 possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve.  = So=20 that generally meant take off - get safely above surround=20 obstructions, then level off/reduce climb until airspeed hit = 120.=20  Then I could resume climb with cooling gradually bring = the=20 temps down as altitude and airflow increased.  Your swee= t=20 spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different= =20 platform and cooling set up.
>
> Ed
>
&g= t;=20 --------------------------------------------------
> Fr= om:=20 "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
> Sen= t:=20 Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM
> To: "Rotary motors in= =20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> S= ubject:=20 [FlyRotary] Turbo question.
>
>> As I have=20 mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings=20 regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I= am=20 getting quite low mp as I add power to higher=20 rpm.
>>
>> I am not well versed in this are= a but=20 my thought is that as I add power, even with slight boost=20 (currently using a 3 lb spring in my wastegate) eventually my= mp=20 should raise a bit more.
>>
>> Today I did = some=20 static test. I recorded engine RPM with the  turbo hooke= d up=20 and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed th= e=20 turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My= =20 results currently confuse me.
>>
>> With th= e=20 turbo hooked up I am getting
>>
>> RPM. &nb= sp;=20 MP inches
>> 2000 - 14.0
>> 3000 -=20 15.5
>> 4000 - 19.3
>> 5000 - 21.6
>&= gt;=20 5700 - 24.5 (topped out)
>>
>> With the tur= bo=20 removed.
>>
>> 2000 - 15.8
>> 3000= -=20 15.3
>> 4000 - 19.7
>> 5000 - 24.8
>&= gt;=20 5833 - 29.8
>>
>> Is this indicative of=20 restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A di= rty=20 air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the ai= r=20 pressure getting to the intake. Or????
>>
>>= ; I=20 am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provid= e. I=20 am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only= have=20 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and=20 input.
>>
>> Heck, perhaps this is working= =20 properly but it just doesn't seem=20 right/comfortable.
>>
>> Thanks=20 folks.
>>
>> Chris Barber
>>=20 Houston
>> Velocity SE
>> Rotary 13b turbo = (?)=20 :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from= my=20 iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Arc= hive=20 and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrot= ary/List.html
>>
>>
>>=20 -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>>= =20 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2= 197 /=20 Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date:=20 08/20/12
>>
>
> --
> Homepage: &nb= sp;http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive= and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrot= ary/List.html

--
Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:=20   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrot= ary/List.html


--
Regards

Andrew Martin
Martin= =20 Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA=20 6532

0427477144
08 99241145
andrew@martinag.com.au


--=20
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