X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTPS id 5728072 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:51:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by pbcxa7 with SMTP id xa7so4218310pbc.25 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:51:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8dIjgLfur5sdp+PePlRoxj1aMX5DT0gZ1dvuty6+U10=; b=KJ+jM7JpY9DkaF98fqqZnVeFcY/vojVnLY/xEiQP+2DQuZDR1j6HZoMGa6AKvgnlfF 12iSTUcbr1PB08NirJ25qfmXoen+fkARX3QVAV1q/B96fIuiYUJm7/vCQ8uSFLLzOku+ uht8Wk/xTDZKShYwoLS5Sl7yYfCcNM9J9X+kX5b8cZNrVB3qMfhdyCl9jfgN+JqktZYQ G4p4e4Pjl9eTxUk7mC7o19Pc/OjXO/CTZrMf6DmEGocZhJ5OIadQ+67gId5MX7sfgr5b aaEsLr9qKqzzNshYBQfJpWmTNcXOvqUbuvN9fVQ9Eq6MHct36fges0sjS360Z8mfB9WW krBA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.224.73 with SMTP id ra9mr16752683pbc.85.1345855881580; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.46.74 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:51:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:51:21 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b1605a1bd924a04c80c7df0 --047d7b1605a1bd924a04c80c7df0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 And just to belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% efficient. Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air but did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air. And, the turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even more calories. All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boost without an intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra rich and or retarding the timing. Much better in the long run to use an intercooler. David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten wrote: > Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you compress it, > it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasing the > chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to reap > any benefit from the turbo. > > Dave. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote: > > Hay Chris, I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an > intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the > racers on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, not > at 6000+++ feet. just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of a > muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary > Lansing MI. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Chris Barber" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: > [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. > > Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I have > as I wanted to start low. > I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or leak I > could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove it > and see if I get good boost > > > > Sent from my iPhone 4 > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" > wrote: > > Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate > spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as > the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo. > Chris? > > Chrissi & Randi > > www.CozyGirrrl.com * > *ClickBonds 10/$7.50 > CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware > Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop > > In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > andrew@martinag.com.au writes: > > Chris > > if your blow off valve is before the intercooler, it may just be opening > too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing all your air to vent, then the > engine would act as NA but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try > a heavier spring. > > Andrew > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber wrote: > >> Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my concern after my cooling >> skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full power. >> >> Trying to determine where the restriction is now. >> >> You are the best. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> >> On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" >> wrote: >> >> > Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your >> coolant/oil temps. As you know take-off is the worst combination of low >> cooling air mass flow and max engine temperature due to WOT. >> > >> > You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power you now >> have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. So I would be >> certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off until >> you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook your >> engine during your first real Turbo climb out. >> > >> > I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quick as >> possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. So that generally >> meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level >> off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. Then I could resume climb with >> cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. >> Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different >> platform and cooling set up. >> > >> > Ed >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------- >> > From: "Chris Barber" >> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM >> > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question. >> > >> >> As I have mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings >> regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting >> quite low mp as I add power to higher rpm. >> >> >> >> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is that as I add >> power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in my >> wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more. >> >> >> >> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the turbo >> hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed the >> turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results >> currently confuse me. >> >> >> >> With the turbo hooked up I am getting >> >> >> >> RPM. MP inches >> >> 2000 - 14.0 >> >> 3000 - 15.5 >> >> 4000 - 19.3 >> >> 5000 - 21.6 >> >> 5700 - 24.5 (topped out) >> >> >> >> With the turbo removed. >> >> >> >> 2000 - 15.8 >> >> 3000 - 15.3 >> >> 4000 - 19.7 >> >> 5000 - 24.8 >> >> 5833 - 29.8 >> >> >> >> Is this indicative of restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter >> cooler? A dirty air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the >> air pressure getting to the intake. Or???? >> >> >> >> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provide. I am >> just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only have 1.6 hours >> in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and input. >> >> >> >> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doesn't seem >> right/comfortable. >> >> >> >> Thanks folks. >> >> >> >> Chris Barber >> >> Houston >> >> Velocity SE >> >> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> >> -- >> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> >> No virus found in this message. >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: >> 08/20/12 >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > > -- > Regards > > Andrew Martin > Martin Ag > 275 Newmarracarra Rd > Moonyoonooka WA 6532 > > 0427477144 > 08 99241145 > andrew@martinag.com.au > > -- --047d7b1605a1bd924a04c80c7df0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And just to belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% efficien= t.=A0 Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air= but did not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air.=A0 And, the= turbo itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even more= calories.

All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boost without an inte= rcooler, but you have to compensate by running extra rich and or retarding = the timing.=A0 Much better in the long run to use an intercooler.

David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten <david.staten@gmail.com= > wrote:
Air at altitude is cooler because of low pres= sure. When you compress it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees,= greatly increasing the chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessa= ry if you want to reap any benefit from the turbo.=A0

Dave.=A0

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote:

Hay Chris,=A0 I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an in= tercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the racer= s on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, not at 60= 00+++ feet.=A0 just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of a = muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice.=A0 David R. Cook=A0 RV6A= =A0 Rotary Lansing MI.

From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: <= /b>"Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.

Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I h= ave as I wanted to start low.=A0
I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or lea= k I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove = it and see if I get good boost



Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com> wrote:
Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate= spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as = the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo.
Chris?
=A0
Chrissi & Randi

www.CozyGirrrl.com
= ClickBonds 10/$7.50
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwo= men, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
=A0
In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, andrew@martinag.com.= au writes:
Chris

if your blow off valve is before the int= ercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing= all your air to vent, then the engine would act as NA but with the interco= oler as a added restriction. try a heavier spring.

Andrew

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.ne= t> wrote:
Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified = my concern after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full powe= r.

Trying to determine where the restriction is now.

You are the be= st.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Chri= s, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your coolant/oil temps= . =A0As you know take-off is the worst combination of low cooling air mass = flow and max engine temperature due to WOT.
>
> You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power = you now have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. =A0So I w= ould be certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off= until you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook you= r engine during your first real Turbo climb out.
>
> I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as qui= ck as possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. =A0So that gen= erally meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level = off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. =A0Then I could resume climb with = cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. = =A0Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different = platform and cooling set up.
>
> Ed
>
> -------------------------------------------= -------
> From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM
> To: "Rotary motors = in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question.
>
>> As I have men= tioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings regarding my manifo= ld pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting quite low mp as I add= power to higher rpm.
>>
>> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is th= at as I add power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in= my wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more.
>>
>> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the =A0tu= rbo hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed th= e turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results curre= ntly confuse me.
>>
>> With the turbo hooked up I am getting
>>
&= gt;> RPM. =A0 MP inches
>> 2000 - 14.0
>> 3000 - 15.5<= br>>> 4000 - 19.3
>> 5000 - 21.6
>> 5700 - 24.5 (to= pped out)
>>
>> With the turbo removed.
>>
>> 2000 -= 15.8
>> 3000 - 15.3
>> 4000 - 19.7
>> 5000 - 24= .8
>> 5833 - 29.8
>>
>> Is this indicative of re= striction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A dirty air filter? = A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the air pressure getting to the = intake. Or????
>>
>> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check a= nd provide. I am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only= have 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and in= put.
>>
>> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doe= sn't seem right/comfortable.
>>
>> Thanks folks.
&= gt;>
>> Chris Barber
>> Houston
>> Velocity S= E
>> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-)
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this m= essage.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Vers= ion: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: 08/20/12
>>
>
> --
> Homepage: =A0http://ww= w.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lan= caironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Ar= chive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrota= ry/List.html



--
Regards
=
Andrew Martin
Martin Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 6= 532

0427477144
08 99241145
andrew@mar= tinag.com.au


<= br>--
--047d7b1605a1bd924a04c80c7df0--